We asked a 1M creator for LinkedIn advice | #4

Transcription

Daniel: Probably the most we've laughed at a show in a while. Good. If we're getting down to the nitty-gritty, I think a strong hook, a single photo, three a-- max, three a-- max. Is that bad advice? My first viral traveling videos was me traveling with a cast iron pan. By the way, illegal, don't do that. I would love that, because as you can tell, I love judging people. The bar is lower to post on LinkedIn. Quality and the entertainment value is way lower than other platforms. Matt, I'm gonna let you take over. Matt: All right. Welcome to this episode of the Connection Accepted Pod. Today, I'm super excited. We have Allison Chan on the pod. Thanks for coming on, Allison. Allison: No, thank you for having me. Matt: So Allison, you are on a lot of social media platforms. I know you're on Substack, Instagram, you're pretty big on TikTok. And now you're also posting long form on YouTube and you're doing LinkedIn pretty frequently, which is wild. But tell us a little bit more about like, where did your whole social media journey even start? Allison: Yeah, so I started posting on TikTok about three, almost four years ago now. And I started because I was going to school at the time and I wanted to sort of do a career and academic pivot. So to do that, I decided to take a gap semester and on that gap semester, instead of getting a job, I just thought about what I would ideally like to do in my dream life. And in that scenario, I really wanted to go to pastry school and become a baker. Daniel: So I took a gap semester or dropped out and then went to pastry school for six months and worked in a bakery afterwards and then came back to school and just sort of continued on with my life. But during those eight months of baking, I started making TikToks, documenting my experience. At the time I was living in France and going to pastry school. So I was just baking for like six to eight hours a day and then recording videos about it and then going home and editing them. So yeah, that's that's how I started making videos. And then from there I just sort of never stopped, especially in that format format of just like documenting what I'm doing in the world of food. Matt: And then after college, I never got a job. So here we are. Daniel: Well, I guess you technically do have a job now, right? You're the chief baking officer at Kitsby. Matt: Sure, sure. I mean, did I give myself that job title? Yes. But like, I guess there are job parts to it. No, I think originally when I started working with Kitsby, I was supposed to come in sort of as like a CMO, like chief marketing officer, but like that's boring. So I think it was way more fun. It would be a fun thing on the internet if I were the chief baking officer. But yeah, I still like to pretend that I don't have a job. I think it keeps my days more interesting. Daniel: I like that. How did you come across Kitsby and start working with them? Matt: Yeah, I mean, so I've been making content. Matt: So during the time that I've been making content, I've also been doing other things. Like for a summer during school, instead of getting an internship, I was just like selling cookies out of my parents' kitchen and then like driving down to New York City to sell them and deliver them to people. So at that time, my friend introduced me to Amy, who is the founder of Kitsby, and she actually let me use her kitchen at the time to bake cookies. And so that was two years ago. And then just this past summer, she was telling me that she was opening a larger space that was just going to be responsible for classes and events and things like that and thought that I'd be a great person to bring on to sort of help with marketing because she's never hired a marketing person before prior to this. And also she's just been doing it all herself. And at some point you need to scale and like hire people. So I was that person. Daniel: And so you guys recently had a grand opening, right? Matt: Yeah, we did. It was fun. Why weren't you there? Daniel: You know, I was busy preparing for this podcast, but we'll have to definitely swing by this weekend. Matt: Whatever you, whatever. I was actually talking to Daniel right before this that we should both definitely come by Kitsby and check out the baked goods. Daniel sometimes flies down. Right now, he's in Boston, but we've got to make a trip. Yeah, but basically Kitsby is like a baking studio. It used to be a cafe. Matt: And then after COVID, it sort of became really difficult to keep up that operation. Plus baking cookies and cakes and pastries every day is like very labor intensive and also just very complicated in case like your chefs call out sick and all those other things. So then we just took the most popular part of the business, which is the actual classes. And now we just do classes. Very cool. Daniel, you and I got to take a class. I want to learn how to, to make one of those, uh, the, the, I saw on Instagram before I was watching the, the tower. I mean, I mean, that was so impressive where you're grating it down. I mean, that was almost like a science. It's like you're building the Leaning Tower of Pisa almost. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I made, I was making a croquembouche on Instagram for an event that we were hosting there. Yeah, no one knows how to pronounce it. It's a, I mean, it's a French word, but yeah, I made those in pastry school. We made like a giant wedding cake version, so I've been like making those like every year for the holiday season for different events and things. Matt: So you're, you're baking this croquembouche. Yeah. How are you thinking about how you're going to make the content around it? You've got a YouTube channel, Instagram, but like everything, and LinkedIn and Substack. How are you thinking about content as you're building this like three-day long process of building a croquembouche? Daniel: Yeah, so I would say that now my primary platforms are still TikTok and Instagram. Daniel: So still short form stuff because that is how I monetize. It's still through short form brand deals. So that's my main priority. And then secondarily, Substack is always a place where I put my recipes. So that's just a sort of like an extra for me right now. And I think most people prefer what I have to say in video form versus written anyways, so it works out better. And then I think I've recently started YouTube. I started YouTube within like the last month. Um, and so that is sort of a secondary priority to filming the TikToks. For a project like a croquembouche, because it's so timely and like I have to be completely focused on making it and I can't really be focused on the content, I'll normally just set up a camera close by, and then it'll just have me film from that angle for like 30 minutes at a time, and then I'll just like switch it because I know like the video needs variety. Now recently, I've also hired a video producer to walk around with a regular camera, and that's how I'm going to make a longer form version of this video where I'm probably gonna like answer questions and actually like teach you more how to do it because like in the 90 seconds, I definitely can't teach you how to make a giant cream puff tower stuck together with burning hot caramel because it's just not possible. So that's how I think of it. And I just think of the YouTube videos as a longer version of the TikToks or a way for me to sort of like experiment more and talk more. Matt: And I think a YouTube audience is more forgiving in terms of what you're able to include in those videos just because they're like committed once you get past the first minute, they're like committed to whatever you have to say, so long as it's not super boring. Daniel: That honestly reminds me just like Nick DiGiovanni. I don't know if you've seen, now he is now has a second channel and it's just dedicated to recipes and learning how to cook and his first channel is almost like food entertainment. He calls it and it reminds me of just like you're doing, so it sounds like it's a great strategy. Matt: Yeah, like the Joshua Weismans of the world and like Nick DiGiovanni all sort of do that now because the food entertainment still performs way better than just the food recipe videos. So I like to, I like the YouTube videos to sort of just be like documentations of like experiments and things and less about the actual recipes. Because if you really want a recipe, you're just gonna like read it or scroll through it really quickly. It's not like as engaging. Daniel: How do you decide what you want to make a video about? You have many, many different things that you've made over the years, but like what goes through your mind when you're like, okay, today I woke up and I want to make a croquembouche. Like how does one decide? Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think right now my content is still very reactive, which I actually think is a bad thing. Daniel: Really? That's so interesting! I did not know my birthday cake made it to LinkedIn fame. But it makes sense though; it feels really personal and special when it's something you put your heart into. Have you thought about maybe doing more planned content, or do you think it'll take a bit of the spontaneity out of your process? Matt: What was, what was that process like? Yeah, so for a while I was experimenting with the idea of like baking cakes for my friends and things. Um, and I think I'll actually revisit that in a little bit, but at the time, I have a friend, Katie, who I went to college with who also works at Kuli, and she was asking me if I wanted to come and visit. And I was like, sure, we can make a couple of videos in the office and I can cook you guys something. But one of the also recurring bits, there are a lot of inside jokes that I'm realizing are happening on the page. But one of the other things I do is like, I often travel with like weird stuff. So I've like traveled, one of like my first sort of viral traveling videos is me traveling with a cast iron pan, by the way, illegal, don't do that. But I would do that, and then I would also like, travel to different like events with a cake on the plane. So I thought like, it would just be funny if I made the cake that Daniel requested and brought it on the plane with me. So he requested a giant taiyaki, which is a fish-shaped like pancake with red bean in the middle. And thankfully, I have a friend with a 3D printer, so we can make that mold and we can make that video happen. But yeah, that's how it came to be. It was really just like what Daniel wanted, and I said, sure, I'll make it. Matt: More importantly, though, after you give him the cake, do you look to what is Matt and I's favorite social media platform, LinkedIn, to post about it? And it goes wild. How did you write that post or think about writing it? Daniel: Yeah, so I've been starting to go on LinkedIn more often. I originally started because I actually wanted more brand deals on my other accounts. And I thought that since my niche is in my video is a little bit difficult for social media brand managers to find, I was like, maybe I can find them on LinkedIn if I talk about content creation and I talk about the stuff that I'm doing off-platform. So that was the original goal. I don't really know what it is now, but like, it's fun sometimes, I guess. But I started posting about the videos and the video topics that I was making, and one of those just so happened to be that I was going to the Klooly office. And so I don't even remember what I wrote in the post. I think I genuinely was just trying to explain what happened, and it went really viral. I think one, because of the association with a viral company, but two, I just think it was a very casual thing and nonchalant thing that I was talking about, and people don't do that on LinkedIn. Matt: 100%. I feel like it's also not every day that you see a post on LinkedIn about someone who baked a giant taiyaki-shaped cake. So that could have also contributed to it. Daniel: So I saw it came about. Yeah, and we also saw that you recently posted about hiring on LinkedIn. Matt: Curious how that's been going. Have you guys found anyone to fill that role? Daniel: At the moment, no. So I was posting about hiring just because I think, like my other accounts, people are trying to follow along with the journey of what I'm doing. And so I wanted my LinkedIn to feel similarly. So I've been posting updates about, oh, we're opening this. We need a social media manager, things like that. And so I posted that and I also put a little photo of me jumping because I thought that would like make it a little bit Gen Z, a little bit like casual. So that way people would be more enticed to share it and also to engage with it. But yeah, I mean, I put a Google form on it because I don't have access to the whatever LinkedIn hiring we do at Kipsy. And it's been going all right. I think it's pretty difficult to find someone for this particular small business to do social media just because I think there's like kind of a Goldilocks problem. Like people either don't have enough experience or have too much for the person that we're trying to hire. But yeah, it's been it's been going if anyone wants to apply after watching this, please do. You'll have to work with me. Matt: How unfortunate. Daniel: No, I know. Very, very unfortunate. So it sounds like you're looking for someone who's not a complete beginner, but is also maybe early enough in their career to sort of be molded into the type of person you're looking for. Would you say that's accurate or? Matt: Yeah. Matt: Because I find like, especially people that are like right out of college might not be able to like take on the responsibility of just doing this and like having the agency to do it by themselves. Whereas, quite frankly, a lot of people later in their career, we can't afford. So, so, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of hard to find someone in the middle and also willing to like be in New York and in person and blah, blah, blah, all these other things. Daniel: Does your co-founder, or I don't know if she year boss, I guess, technically like Amy, does she, does she post on LinkedIn at all? Matt: So, no, and I've actually been encouraging the team to start posting on LinkedIn. It's just once again, like we don't have anyone on social media that's like forcing this down people's throats, which is kind of sad. I get it. No one like wants to post on LinkedIn. There are like so many companies now though that don't even have sales teams. They just have their employees post on LinkedIn and that's how they do all of their sales and all of their sales are inbound. And so I just like really. Daniel: I wish people would bite the bullet of the bite the cringe bullet and just start posting. But for now, it's just me, so that's fine, I guess. But yeah, Amy should be posting more on LinkedIn, and so should the rest of the team. It's just that for the posts to even do well, I would have to train all of them or read through all of the posts. So in addition to like my other social media jobs, it's kind of hard. Matt: Totally agree, especially when if a lot of the audience for classes could be companies or you know, other big companies like that to take a class together, which I would love to do, it's much easier to target them on LinkedIn, especially now when not as many people are biting the cringe bullets. There's a better opportunity for people like us to post. Daniel: Yeah, you should have your team come down. You should pitch it to the team. That's why I'm on this podcast, guys, to pitch all of everyone you're working with to to come book a class for the entire company. I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely bring it up, and we'll see. I'll ask a few. I have more pull than me. Matt: I, I'm curious when you think about Lovely, lovely being on the podcast, guys. Bye. Shortest pod ever. Yeah. I'm curious though, if you were to think of your LinkedIn posting strategy for Kitsby though, what is your strategy? What do you want to be posting about that you aren't now? Either from your account or Amy's or whoever's. Daniel: Totally. I mean, I just think traditionally, Amy and the team is really bad at like celebrating their wins. And like, I hate it too. Like, I do think it's cringy to talk about everything you do in such a saccharine, overly positive way. Like that's so millennial. But there are a lot of things that we do behind the scenes for for like corporate events and for like corporate catering and things that they just never talk about. And LinkedIn is the perfect place to do it. Matt: And so I just like really want them to post about those things, but like also a lot of the times they forget to take photos of the fact that it even happened. So even simple things like that. I mean, you can get into the more personal stuff of like, oh, these are things that we're struggling with in the business and things and like how they personally feel about the projects that they're working on. But I think even simply posting about the fact that stuff happened needs to be online. Daniel: I totally agree. And I wish I could see some of the behind the scenes of Kitsby and all the stuff you're doing. So that's how you think about Kitsby's LinkedIn content. How do you think about your own LinkedIn content, not only for Kitsby, but also for your personal brand? Matt: Yeah. So once again, like I started posting on LinkedIn because I was trying to see if I could get more brand deals from it. And so I was trying to think about topics that I could talk about from like a content creation standpoint and sort of documenting the things that I was doing on other platforms. I think I've recently slowed down a little bit just because I don't, I somehow think my audience got messed up along the way and now mostly it's just people in tech that like my content, but I guess that's the same on other platforms too. So like, it's, it's fine. But I kind of took the philosophy of like, for a little bit, I think I have the unique advantage of not wanting a job from LinkedIn. Daniel: So I don't have to be professional in any capacity. I can like incorporate a sense of humor and just make them like funny and entertaining in the, in a way that like other professionals and working professionals can't. So for a while, I was just posting like once a day and like posting some like educational tidbits, but also mostly just like roasting and complaining about how bad people are at making content. And so that's really what I've, I think that's been most of my successful content pieces are just me complaining about how other people are bad at whatever they're doing. If we're being totally honest. Matt: I definitely picked up on that as well. I think you had a post about like YouTube intros and how people spend way too much time introducing themselves. Daniel: No, it's not even YouTube intros. Like the thing is, is you don't even see those bad intros because like unless you follow them, unless they're a close friend. But I know many people in real life that are trying to make content and they'll start off the video base saying, hi, my name is Amy, or like, hi, my name is Alison. And unfortunately no one gives a. So I just like really wanted to express that opinion. And I feel like, honestly, I feel like Twitter is probably the better place to do that, but like, I guess LinkedIn is like good enough for my purposes and also hopefully can bring me like great connections with other people. So like that's why I started. Matt: That makes sense. Yeah. Daniel: On the part about like the intros, that's that's so interesting. I'm definitely guilty of doing that in some of my YouTube videos. Maybe, maybe it's, maybe with short form, it's different because people have even shorter attention spans than say like long form 15, 20 minute videos, but I can definitely see what you mean with like If you spend five seconds in the beginning. Saying your name, people, you've already lost half the audience. Yeah, or like, honestly, even on YouTube, you'll see that there's definitely more retention if you don't start your video like that. Like all the biggest YouTubers now, nowadays, when you click into the video, the videos, the video title is like a question and the video just immediately starts. There's no intro. There's no like, what's up guys? Like, how are you doing? Like, you have the question in the title and then the video and content plays immediately as soon as you click on it. So I think, like, anyone, like, trying to make good content or trying to tell a good story, like, won't start with their name. Even if you look at like a TED talk, right, like all these people start with some sort of introduction about the topic that eases you in. That has nothing to do with their credentials. Because like, ultimately, we don't really care about other people like that. Like, we don't care about strangers on the internet like that. We just more or less care about what you have to say. I really like that. Daniel: I feel like it touches on like the fact that most people, they just care about the value that they can get out of whatever piece of content it is, whether it's like entertainment or learning something. It also kind of reminds me of how the hook of a LinkedIn post, I feel like it's super important to get immediately to the point or at least trigger some kind of emotion that gets people to want to even read for longer than a few seconds. I'm curious if you, in your hooks, like, what kind of thought do you put to it or Yeah, what's your thought process around LinkedIn hooks? Matt: Yeah, honestly, my thought process of LinkedIn writing is actually to think about it less, if that makes sense. I think the hook is super important. Like, that is a part that I will spend a lot of time on, but I think on the speed of, like, in the amount of content that's just available on LinkedIn and all these other platforms, I don't think it's worth anyone's time to spend, like, an extra 30 minutes, like, trying to retool all the words and trying to, like, make it perfectly formatted. And I also think because there's so much AI slop on LinkedIn and there's so much, like, corporate BS on LinkedIn, it's actually to your benefit to not spend as much time trying to make it sound really professional and to just, like, get your thoughts out and get them out, like, quickly and, in my case, casually. But I think that's where, so that, like, I don't actually spend that much time on my more successful posts. Daniel: My most successful LinkedIn posts I wrote in like five minutes and posted them immediately. But like, I actually, is that like, is that bad advice? Like, I, because I know I do that, but I know that other people might not be able to replicate that. Matt: Yeah. I think it's bad advice at all. I think, like, I, I, I don't think it's advisable for everyone who might be using ChatGPT to write something in five minutes. But for you, Alison, I think that's more authentic and you're so gifted at content. It, you only need five minutes to make such a viral post. Daniel: Right, but like, I guess what I'm trying to say is, is like, you, authenticity is actually missing from LinkedIn, like, like, is really missing from LinkedIn. And like, people on LinkedIn crave authenticity because they're trapped at work. They're trapped at their corporate jobs. They don't like really feel like themselves, right? And so it's to everyone's benefit to just write their posts a little bit more casually and to not, like, retool and reconfigure it so much to sound like a corporate template. Now, obviously, not everyone can get away with that in the same way I can, but, like, a LinkedIn post regardless will stand out more if you're talking more casually, if you have a different tone of voice, if you're not writing ChatGPT style slop. Matt: I feel so strongly about this because when I was ghostwriting for someone this summer, I would send them a post and then they would edit it and then it'd go through, like, five rounds of edits within the company. And then that's doing the same thing ChatGPT does. It's finding the amalgamation of five different responses and then spitting it out to you, and it loses all the emotion and it loses all the authenticity. And I feel the same thing you did, that the only way for it to reach an audience is through authenticity, whether it takes five minutes or 30 minutes. Daniel: There's also such a shame on LinkedIn though because there's a lot of things that are written by ChatGPT that also do super well, which is very annoying in like a way that wouldn't do well on other platforms. But like, as someone who's like biased to working on other platforms, like, I think that authenticity is better. Matt: Oh, I completely agree. And I think like one of the, one of the highest performing posts that I've put out has also been like something that I wrote up in probably 15 minutes and it was just like me listing out a bunch of things that I failed at. And so it was just like, I think it stood out because one, very few people want to talk about things that they've failed at on LinkedIn especially because it's such a professional, quote unquote, buttoned up platform. But two, it's like, it was authentic because I barely edited it. Matt: And I didn't use, I did use a little bit of AI to like tighten up the language, but it was largely me who wrote it. And so it sounds a lot different than like your standard ChatGPT super structured EM dashed filled post. So I agree with you there. I do think it's maybe tougher for people who, like as a content creator, I'm I think we have a higher bar for, or a lower bar actually, for what we're, we consider acceptable to put out there. But like, if I was a professional working at some, I don't know, big tech company or something, I'd probably be more hesitant about it. But for me, I just, I don't know, for better or for worse, I just don't care as much. So I'm OK with putting some of that content out. Daniel: Well, I think like if you are a big professional at a large company, like you already are using LinkedIn for different purposes and you already have someone who's helping you writing, helping you write things. Um, and so like, obviously that's different. For other people though, that don't already have this like business brand associated with them though, like you do, you, you will need to fail a few times and you will need to be embarrassing for a bit before like you actually see success. So like, I would just say deal with it. You heard it here. Like, I mean, I, I think I like last week, I think I met up with some people that I went to college with, and I was like, oh yeah, I'm posting on LinkedIn now. And they were like, yeah, I've been seeing that. And I'm like, oh, cool. Daniel: Didn't bring it up though. Um, and it's not like, it's clear that they don't love it. And everyone, I don't think anyone at our age, like really wants to be doing it or like thinks it's like cool. But like, I mean, if you want that to be a part of your brand and you want that, those opportunities to come, then like on any platform, you do need to publicly fail a few times before you figure out how to like have the low bar of what's acceptable for your content. Matt: I think it's a, I think it's a compliment. Your friends are bringing up your LinkedIn. Cause it means they're obviously seeing it. So the content's doing pretty well. Daniel: I don't know if they're my friends, but um, but they're certainly seeing it. Matt: Okay, so we have authenticity. What else is working well for you on LinkedIn or you see working well? Daniel: Hmm. I mean, I still think I still love a good single photo. If we're getting down to the nitty gritty, I think a single photo, a strong hook, a single photo, three emojis max, three hashtags max. LinkedIn is a simple place. You can, you can follow these rules and the post will do at least okay. Matt: What about bold text or italics? Daniel: I mean, I don't write in with bold text or italics ever. So I've never used them in my LinkedIn posts. Honestly, I personally enjoy writing all my LinkedIn posts in lowercase, but like, I, I wouldn't say that's like a secret to success or anything. Matt: So, yeah, I mean, I'm here for bold and italics. I think if appropriately used. Matt: What about comments? Comments, leaving comments. Daniel: Yeah. Leaving comments. I try not to leave many comments just because I have opinions that I don't think need to be shared in these, in the LinkedIn comments. Like LinkedIn is not a place for debate, you know? Matt: No. I will say commenting can drive a lot of profile growth, maybe for the wrong reasons, if you're not commenting the best things. But in case you want to, um, you know, unauthenticate, unauthenticize yourself, you can go back into the comments zone and maybe see some growth there. Daniel: Yeah. I mean, I definitely respond to a lot of comments on my own posts. I just, I honestly, at this point, I don't think I should be commenting on other people's posts because like, that means I would be spending more time on LinkedIn and I don't, I don't think we should be spending a lot of time on any social media platform. Matt: Are you a post and ghost kind of person? You just post on LinkedIn, then you got to get out of there? Daniel: No, no, no, no. I check it because I love the dopamine. But I think to limit, to limit my time on the platform, I'm a bit lazy and I don't like to. Matt: You a desktop or mobile? Daniel: Desktop. Well, to be honest, to be honest, I do think LinkedIn's UI is terrible on both, but, but I, I do on desktop just because I prefer to write on desktop. Matt: Not to get too personal, but are we in light or dark mode here? Daniel: On my desk. Actually on my desktop, I'm on light mode. Daniel: I would think it would be a better, it's definitely better in light mode than dark mode in my opinion on desktop. I don't think LinkedIn on dark mode might be scary. Matt: I think it would be too. Yeah, you know, have you used it? I've never even considered using it on dark mode. I've never used dark mode. Daniel, have you? Daniel: You know, honestly, I feel like I'm imagining something like Twitter right now is what it would look like. And that's probably not the place you want to spend most of your time. Matt: Yeah, no, I agree. Although, like I said, a lot of my LinkedIn ideas probably would do better on Twitter, but I just don't think. Daniel: But you don't post a lot on Twitter. Matt: Well, yeah, no, because I just don't think anything I, like my audience is not on Twitter. Like nothing, also nothing I say is like. Daniel: It's particularly controversial enough to go on Twitter. Let's be, let's be honest. I'm just telling you to like, please make a more interesting video. Like, that's not controversial enough for Twitter. Croquembouches can get pretty controversial. Matt: Says who? A person who doesn't know how to make one? Yikes, I don't know what I was saying there. Matt, I'm going to let you take over. Daniel: All right, so if you were the CEO of LinkedIn, like what, and you could make, like, one change, what would you, what would you change? Matt: Wait, who is the CEO of LinkedIn? Ryan Roslansky. Do you know him? Automatic. Daniel: Wow, wow. Y'all, you guys are in it. If I could make one change, hmm, I would make so many changes. Daniel: It's really hard to just pick one. Matt: Pick a few. Daniel: Okay, I think at the top of my list. I would pick, probably I would pick creator monetization. Now, obviously, I'm biased. But I think, right, but I do think that their creator monetization, spoken from other creators I've spoken to too, by the way, like other LinkedIn influencers, they all say their creator monetization is bad. And like, I think there is such a missed opportunity for people to make interesting content on LinkedIn. And no one will make interesting content on LinkedIn if there is no money and there is no money invested in the plot. Because I also think, like, the quality of the LinkedIn creators is definitely just not, it's not nearly as high as other platforms because it's not nearly as competitive because there are less dollars here. Matt: Second, maybe this should be first, honestly, their analytics are terrible. Daniel: I agree. They don't mean anything. Matt: How, how do them don't mean anything? Like if you, if you really look at them, like they're actually not useful. Like, you're telling me my view, like, I think one of them is like view count over a certain number of days, but you can't see how many view views you got per day. Like, it's, it's all, it's all bad. They're not good. Daniel: And third, I think it's difficult to make content on LinkedIn. Like, there. There is no text editor. And like, people probably would put bold, and I, I would put bold and italic font maybe in my posts, but you, you can't add it natively on LinkedIn. Matt: So you'd have to use Google or you'd have to use docs or Word to manually edit those first and then import them into LinkedIn, which like defeats the purpose of having like a, like a platform for you to actually like create on. And it never like your posts, like drafts never saved. You can't find your scheduled posts very easily. Like, there's so many things. Yeah. Those are like, those are a few off the top of my head. There's one more that I just thought of as I was ranting about this, but I will, I will get back to you on that when I do, when I, when I figure that out. Creator monetization needs to be a thing, otherwise there's not going to be good creators coming to this platform. And then two, like the analytics, especially compared to YouTube, which is what I'm used to too. I mean, it's, it's like, it's like a world apart. Daniel: One thing that I would love. Granted, it did take YouTube 10 years to figure out their dashboard and their analytics. But it's not like LinkedIn hasn't been around for 10 years. Matt: That's true. That's true. But I think something like A/B testing of hooks would be really cool. Or, and not even just like hooks, but like, if you wanted to put a, a picture versus a video or two different pictures and just test that, that would be super insightful. And then of course, like understanding where the impressions are, like who is actually part of the 100,000 impressions in one of your viral posts, right? Today you have no idea. Daniel: Is it your, is it the audience that you want or not? So, yeah, completely agree there. Yeah. Also, last thing, last thing, LinkedIn has horrible, horrible like in-app search. It's like easier to find people on Google than it is on LinkedIn, which makes no sense because you're trying to find their LinkedIn, but you're going to go to Google to find their LinkedIn, which is just once again, defeats the purpose of trying to keep users on your app. That was my last point. Sorry. I just actually like... Matt: I know how passionate you are about it. Dude, I know there are teams for this. Like there is a creator monetization team that I have reached out to. No one's gotten back. Like there are people that are supposedly working on this stuff. Don't know where. They're not sharing anything. So it's really annoying. Daniel: No, I know. It's so annoying because I'm trying, like I am trying to bring funny, bring entertainment to LinkedIn, but like, I guess, but like, honestly, I've also decided that, like, I don't think that's what LinkedIn wants. Matt: Yeah. I, I hope that's not the case. I will say one tool that you may find helpful is a free tool called TypeGrow. I wish I made this. And you can format your posts and see how they would look like before the dot, dot, dot more. And it's a better text editor than LinkedIn. So I'll have to send, I can send it to you after too. I wish there was a referral. Daniel: What I could give you, but it's a free tool, so you'll have to check that out, but those are some very good rants. Matt may ask you to sign a petition later for his A-B testing. He really wants this to happen, and I don't blame him. I think it's an awesome feature YouTube has. I think so too. I think I do think, though, that some of my ideas might should take priority, but I also think like part of testing, like on other platforms, because they're like not a YouTube video, like a YouTube video takes forever to make, so I get the the nature of A-B testing, but like these other platforms, when you post on them, they're also algorithmic that like you know what's successful based on just what performs and the performance is like kind of instant. And if it doesn't perform, no one saw it, so it's great. Matt: What about Substack? What do they do well for you as one of the most successful creators on the platform that LinkedIn doesn't? Daniel: Well, I wouldn't say I'm like nearly the most successful Substacker. Substacker, when Substack when they originally started, I think brought on journalists onto their platform. So they like, they got journalists to go independent from publications and to make their Substack the only place that you could find the news that they wrote about. And so I would say that's where they succeed the most, not from someone like me who like makes recipes, because there are also like other models to monetize recipes and to monetize recipe websites. Matt: But they have, like, they do have office hours. I have the emails and contacts of some people on their partnerships team, so like if I were to email them about questions, they would respond. And they do have office hours, like I said, for people that have like over 100 and over 1,000, like, paid subscribers. So they do have, like, customer experience and customer support people. It's really impressive, super impressive that you've been able to get, I think it was like what, 10,000 subscribers on your Substack, and a lot of those being paid as well. What do you think about, like, Substack notes? Because I have a Substack as well, and it seems like they're trying to push that social aspect more now. I noticed you also used notes, and you've posted a few recently, but how do you feel about that versus just, like, using it as a standalone? Like, I'm going to post my recipes here. Daniel: Yeah, when I met with the Substack team, originally, a big thing they sold me on was there's a lot of organic growth potential on Substack, as opposed to just having to, like, convince your audience to sign up for Substack or to subscribe to your Substack. And that's because, because of the notes feature that you mentioned. So the notes feature, I think it kind of works like real, uh kind of works like threads. Daniel: Like it's not as like controversial as like Twitter and stuff, but there are a lot of people that have seen a lot of success from just like one viral notes post that has like allowed them to convert and like gain a lot of subscribers and like a larger Substack following. So I think it's good, like, that, and also I just feel like a lot of the notes that are coming up, at least on my feed, are, they don't have to be super engineered like a LinkedIn post, or they don't have to be super, like, engineered or funny like a tweet, for example, to perform really well. It's just a lot of people with their genuine thoughts and then also like a lot of like fun, cute photos. So yeah, I think like, I don't use it a ton. I use it every now and then. And then I honestly, like, have someone repost my videos onto Substack notes, but I think it's like, I'm, I'm not opposed to it, because at the end of the day, like Substack is kind of social for a lot of people that write more like commentary pieces and people that like have, like, I guess more like discussions on their Substack than I do. So I think it's good to facilitate all that stuff. Matt: Do you not like notes? Daniel: No, I think I agree with you. And I, I noticed I'm just scrolling through your notes feed right now. You, you do post a lot of your short form content on there. Matt: I, I think that my general impression of Substack is, at least right now, and I've noticed there's bigger and bigger creators that have been joining recently, but it was kind of like a smaller, it started out a lot smaller, like you said, with journalists. And then there was like more writers that started joining and creatives, and I guess I wonder how long they're going to be able to maintain the same kind of feeling that I think it has. It feels more approachable, and honestly, there was a time where I was using Substack a lot because I felt like it was less brain-rotty compared to other social media platforms. X was like, oh my gosh, if I spend a few hours on there, I just feel bad. And then LinkedIn is like, if I spend too much on there, I also feel kind of like, I didn't get that much out of it. And maybe YouTube is probably the only one where I'm like, I can spend hours on and I'll feel like I still learned a lot or got a lot out of it. And then for written, though, I felt like Substack was the most approachable. And part of that is because the community is really small and people don't really care as much about, like, cracking the algorithm. But now there's more people coming on, so I don't know in like a year or two where it's gonna be or if it's still gonna be that same approachable platform. I mean, obviously there's a point with anyone, sort of like as the scale of things increase, where things become less approachable. Matt: Like, obviously, I feel like I'm more removed from my audience than I was when I had thousands, like, followers, for instance. And I think that's just, like, that is a thing that naturally happens. But also, I think the whole point of Substack is to make writing really approachable and to give anyone the power to, like, monetize their writing really for them, right? And to monetize and write on their platform. So I feel like if you find those smaller creators on Substack, it's still gonna feel the same. It's still gonna feel very small and tight-knit. You just might have maybe trouble finding them, but I don't think you ever, like, you always would have, if that makes sense. You always would have had trouble if they were really small. Daniel: Yeah, no, I agree. And then the last thing I wanted to say on Substack was, what makes it special right now is there's no ads, whereas, like, I feel like people were kind of, or kind of are still worried that right now, I think they monetize mainly through, like, the subscriptions taking a cut of that. But if they were to flood the ad with feeds, that would, sorry, flood the feed with ads, that would sort of ruin the experience. But, yeah, Substack's an interesting one. Matt: Yeah, I think Substack itself isn't gonna flood your feed with ads, hopefully. I think that's why they have the monetization model, is because if you're paying a monthly subscription, there should be no ads. And so I think that's how they're doing it. Daniel: However, there is an uptick of people getting sponsored posts on Substack. So you are starting to see advertisement in other ways. I have not yet, but I hope one day. Matt just wants free Substack advice, Alison. We gotta get back to the topic at hand. We gotta get back to LinkedIn. Okay, so you post your short-form videos on Substack. Have you thought about posting them on LinkedIn? Because these are getting millions of views on other platforms. Or what's your thought process like towards putting those videos on LinkedIn? Matt: I'm hesitant to post on my short-form videos on LinkedIn just because I think right now, short-form videos aren't really performing well on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is really into single photos or horizontal video seems to be doing okay at the moment. And I find this issue on Facebook as well. I just don't think the audience is very receptive to my content in the same way it is on these other platforms. And so I think older audiences don't really care about my quick cutting croquembouche baking videos like that, unless there's some sort of business objective that I can like post about and talk about in the caption, which I have thought about. And at the moment, I can't think of many. Like you could probably post one or two videos, but also they wouldn't perform well. Like, if I just literally took the 30 seconds to take a photo, the post would do better. So I would just do that as opposed to reposting my old videos. Unless it's a brand deal. Daniel: I will be posting my brand deals and stuff, hopefully on there. And hopefully someone will see it. I also feel so strongly about this that you're making the right call there as well. Because the CMO and the CEO that's reading your LinkedIn content and wants to do a brand deal with you, doesn't understand why you're watching the croquembouche video, why someone else would watch this, but they understand the business of Alison Chen and they understand the numbers of what you're doing and the impact you're having through your content. Or trying to anyway. Matt: I don't actually think. I also realized that a lot of people on my LinkedIn don't watch my other videos. They just only know me on LinkedIn and separate and siloed, which is fine because different platforms have different audiences. But a lot of the stuff I say doesn't make sense unless you realize that I have been creating content for a long time. Has LinkedIn landed you any brand deals for Instagram or YouTube or your other short-form platforms? Daniel: No. Not yet. Not yet is the answer. The long answer is no. LinkedIn has done nothing for my other platforms. That was not good for the thesis behind the podcast, but not yet. We're gonna say it's not yet. I'm gonna say not yet because the reason I started posting was because when I was at Cannes at Cannes Lions, which is like a giant advertising festival, I met a bunch of creators who were exclusively LinkedIn creators and were still in the same Uber XL as me. Daniel: And they got there with a fraction of the followers just because they posted on LinkedIn. And I was like, okay, well, if we're in the same car, then clearly you're doing something right. So how can I learn from you? And how can I also capture what's happening on LinkedIn in that way? But I do unfortunately think because content creation is on other platforms, I don't think... It's been as successful for me as someone who, like, previously worked in sales or like had a traditional marketing job and is talking about it in this like corporate way. So no, nothing has gone on so far, but hopefully we could change that. I have met cool people though, I guess, if that counts for anything. Matt: Tell us more about what it was like meeting these LinkedIn creators at Cannes. I'm curious what you learned and how that's changing your view on LinkedIn content, if at all. Daniel: Yeah, once again, like, I was in an Uber with them. So like, I talked to them for 20 minutes. I talked to them for 20 minutes. No, it's changing 20 minutes. But I sat down, we were like, oh, what's your name? Oh, you make content on LinkedIn? Really? Like, you exist? And you're in this car with me in the south of France? No, because I would, I think in college, I made a post on LinkedIn and it was like a sarcastic post of like, I just hit 500 plus connections. I'm so excited about it. And then I put my like YouTube play button in the photo because I thought it was funny. Disrespect. No, exactly. Daniel: Or like, and then I, I think I drew the LinkedIn logo on the YouTube play button. So it was like my award for hitting 500 plus connections because like, So like, I used to joke that I liked, I wanted to be a LinkedIn influencer just because I thought it was funny. But then I actually met a bunch of them and I was like, oh wait, you actually do exist and like, this is actually a viable thing you can do for your career. And so I think the main takeaway that I learned from them is that no one posts on LinkedIn, you should do it. And like, the bar is lower to post on LinkedIn. The quality and the entertainment value is way lower than other platforms. And it's not like those people aren't, it's not like the people that are on LinkedIn are not the same. They are the same people that use other social media platforms. They just happen to be at work. And so like, you can, there is, you can bring entertainment and educational business value from your content on other platforms and just pop it on LinkedIn and it'll perform wonderfully. And so, yeah, that was their advice. Their advice was honestly to be like, here's three easy meals you can make at home while working from home. But like, I wasn't going to do that. But the point is, they told me I should post. I agree with them. Daniel: And there's one even content creator right now who's posting like fitness hacks on LinkedIn, Dan Goh, I don't know if you see him, and he has like 400,000 followers and is getting thousands of likes per post and like something you wouldn't expect to go viral on LinkedIn, but does. It's because the people at work are only allowed to scroll on LinkedIn, right? Because like that counts as work appropriate. But it's not like they wouldn't watch a baking or an exercise video on LinkedIn. Like they probably would rather watch that. So like, all the stuff is still viable on the platform. Matt, what do you have to say about this? Matt: No, I was just thinking about what Allison, you were saying. I do think LinkedIn is the most socially acceptable office social media to be caught scrolling on. So, you know, like if someone's walking by your cubicle and like I used to work in investment banking and we'd have these open cubicles and it'd be like 10 p.m. at night. You'd be kind of just like scrolling on your phone or something. And then maybe your staffer would walk by and you'd quickly try to hide it. But if I was on LinkedIn, it was like, oh, it's fine. It's better than like being on TikTok for sure. Daniel: Totally. Because at least I'm maybe building my network. So I do agree. Like there's probably more people that are using it and that doesn't mean though, that they're not going to be interested in baking or a fitness video. Matt: And I feel like the main takeaway from the conversation with the influencers is just like, there's a big opportunity. The bar is so low right now. There's not that many people creating. It's still kind of like, it's still cringe to post on LinkedIn. So like the people that are, you are ahead of the ball because your competition is less than on other platforms. Yes, Matt, you are ahead of the ball. You are ahead of the ball. You're the belle of the ball. Daniel: Yeah, the only, the only issue with LinkedIn is like, LinkedIn kind of feels like TikTok in 2020. If you post, you will like gain a lot of success and traction. The only thing is, is like, it's unclear if LinkedIn itself is going to take the steps to like catch up with other platforms and like actually have your success be like very meaningful or like your follower count be very meaningful. Matt: Allison, I've been screaming this from the rooftops, that LinkedIn's the next TikTok. Yeah, but like, but like part of it, part of it is like, it might not be because LinkedIn's been around for decades and it's still so behind. So like, it might, it might not like catch up ever to the success of these other platforms because like, frankly, their, their product team's slow. Daniel: But who's LinkedIn's competition, even if their product team's slow, like Instagram? It has TikTok, YouTube even has Netflix in a way, like Twitter and threads, but like, who's the LinkedIn competition? I mean, like, YouTube at first, like TikTok at first was YouTube's competition. Now YouTube is competing in like with TV. But like, I think there can be other social platforms that can compete with LinkedIn, or really, really, LinkedIn is just like competing with itself in a way, of like, it's not producing any valuable product. Like, it's not making itself more popular. Like it has the moat of like, being a professional network, and like, it has the advantage of having all these professionals on it that no other platform has in the way it does. But like, it hasn't, like, you cannot edit text on LinkedIn. You can't search for people on LinkedIn. These are basic functions that every other social platform has. So like, it doesn't have the UI capabilities. It doesn't have the power. And, like, even Substack, for instance, Substack rose from the ashes in like, three, four years, right? So like, there is something, if someone is hungry enough, they can totally overtake LinkedIn in like, five years, because like, LinkedIn is just slow. Matt: Yeah, I feel like that lack of competition may be also why they're not that fast to improve. And Daniel, I remember from our conversation with Marshall, I think that LinkedIn maybe hasn't moved as fast because of the moat that they have. Daniel: But Daniel and I were talking with Marshall Sandman, who he runs Animal Capital, which is a venture capital fund started with Josh Richards, Noah Beck, and a few other, like, TikTokers. And I believe they invested in a company called, Was it Work Week, Daniel? That was supposed to be like, a social media for professionals, or is trying to be a LinkedIn competitor. I forget the name. I'd have to look it up after this. No, I think it was, I don't think it was a Linked, maybe it was a LinkedIn competitor. I thought it was more positioned towards, like, warehousing jobs and more like a trauma competitor. We're going to have to look into it and, yeah, we'll have to. This is, this is awkward. Social platforms are obviously hard, and I am not an engineer by any means. So, like, I do not know what it would take design-wise to, like, make a LinkedIn competitor, but some nerdy genius would be able to do it. Like, it is totally possible to usurp LinkedIn in terms of professional networks, especially because all these other companies, like, have data on, like, your professional history or, like, things like that or if you have to do, like, job postings and things like that on, like, a brain trust, for example. All right, well, Alison, if Kitsby and you no longer work out, I think me, you, and Matt have a new thing we can get going instead that. I would really, no thank you. I cannot code to save my life. Matt: Not yet, but you can roast it, and that's, like, an extremely important part of the process. Daniel: True, true. I don't think we can vibe code the next major social platform, but I can certainly complain about it. Matt: Okay, so that, so maybe vibe code and LinkedIn is a bad idea. We're going to transition to the other seven I had prepared for you, Alison, and you're going to tell me if this is a good idea, bad idea, and your thoughts behind it. Okay, you ready? Daniel: Uh-huh. Matt: The first one is to add playlist to the baking kits. It kitsby. Daniel: Playlist? Matt: Yeah, so you can cook, you know, the, I honestly don't even want to try pronouncing these things because I'm going to mess it up. But then, you know, along with the recipe and instructions, you can have a playlist that you curated to listen to it. Daniel: You think if we're going to spend money on a QR code, I think it should be a link to a playlist of tutorial videos on how to make the baking, how to make the baked goods. Matt: Okay, so we're gonna call it. Maybe a good idea. I appreciate your honesty, but we're gonna move on to the bad idea with royalty-free music in the background. That's important. The next one, which I'm super passionate about, is a live Peloton-like cooking class where you can have, like, you know, leaderboards of how good everyone's, like, circles are for the cake and everything. And it's fun, and you're playing music. What do you think about that? Daniel: Wait, I would love that because as you can tell, I love judging people. Matt: It's almost like a live food network. Yeah. Wait, that would be great. I don't know, like, logistically how that would work, but if it could, I would do it. But I don't have to do any work, you know? I would do it. I wish we had a connection, connection-exempted in-house development team, but if we do, we'll get back to you. Daniel: Okay, so the next one is smart baking utensils that judge your form while you're using them. So, like, you know, I was watching you whisk, and granted, I am, like, a baking, like, novice. Like, I don't know what I'm doing, but like, you know, even the way I hold it, like, it could grade the way how I hold it and everything, you know? I'm sure this even, like, looks, you're laughing at me the way I'm even doing this. But what do you think about that? Matt: Smart baking utensils that judge your form. I mean, why would we develop this when I already exist? And I, I really don't think this needs to be, like, a reproducible product. Just the, the solution to this is just to watch more of your videos. Daniel: Exactly. Okay, so this one is more of a request, and I think it has been mentioned before, and it's baking for the office. Best lunches or foods could be a LinkedIn series. You know, I'm really looking for more ideas of what to bring for lunch today or to work. If you ever make that content, I'm here for it, just so you know. Matt: No, I actually, I think that is a good idea, and I think I need to return to baking for people's offices again. Love it. Now... Daniel: But you're in Boston, so that doesn't even matter. I'm not going all the way to Boston. You know, that's a fair point, but when I'm in, but, but I will be in New York for some point. I'm going to New York this Saturday, so if there's stuff that... But you're not in the office on Saturday. Matt: That's true. That's true. This is pretty awkward then. We're just gonna have to move on to the next one. But good idea. Not for you. The baked goods aren't for you. Maybe Matt's office, or if you ever open up a Boston franchise, then I'll be the first customer. I'll pass on that idea, but thank you. Daniel: Actually, Allison, I forgot to tell you about this. I've been cooking, baking, actually, protein bagels with my brother, and our shaping technique is awful, but we've got the ingredients down to a science. If you ever need some protein, like flour and a good recipe to make protein bagels. Matt: So what, do you use like cottage cheese? Like, where is this protein coming from? Daniel: No, no, no, no, no, I've got this awesome supplier in Louisville, Kentucky. There are like four types of vegan protein flour, different kinds I use. I'm gonna tell you off camera, because I can't tell the secret to the audience, but you mix these four in a certain ratio, and they taste just like bagels. 195 calories, 22 grams of protein. They're just, they're exquisite. Matt: I believe it. I don't, I don't believe in protein like that. Like you find gentlemen probably do, but. Matt: Like, I'm not a gym bro like that, but like, I'm proud of you. Thank you. And the next time I'm in New York and make bagels beforehand, I'm gonna drop some off so you can see that while I may not know how to whisk that well, I can bake decently, just to put that out there. Can you make a non, can you just make a regular bagel version? Daniel: Okay. No, I'm just gonna need to move on to the next idea then. The next idea is a dessert rave. We've got coffee raves, like, you know, in coffee shops, whatever. Why not, why not dessert, you know? Have, have some baked goods and party a little bit. So, yeah, I mean, we are, we've also done some sales at raves in terms of, because like at Kitsby, they also sell bubble tea and do like bubble tea catering at events and stuff. And we've just found that the people that are raving are not really interested in, say, eating too while they're dancing for various reasons, because they're really distracted by the music and the lights. So, yeah, I would like that personally as like a party, but I recognize that a lot of people don't enjoy eating while they while. Matt: That makes sense. Obviously, because they'd get their hands messy and like it would, yeah. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a whole nightmare. Like, aren't interested for whatever reason. The last one I was actually googling before, and unfortunately it has been done before, but a cooking-themed Airbnb, you know, all over my TikTok, it's been Virginia's number one luxury rental. Matt: What if we have New York's number one cooking rental? And you've got, you know, everything prepared. I guess it's similar to a cooking class, but yeah, thoughts there? Daniel: Well, I think you just answered the question. I think we already do that. Yeah, honestly, I think cooking classes are better because then you don't have to deal with any of the cleaning or anything. Matt: So... Daniel: Yeah. We're gonna dump that one into the bad idea and go ahead and end this segment. But I will say, I think, you know, we came up with some good ideas. We have, you know, the Peloton light cooking class and baking for the office. Those we may see in the coming... Matt: In the near or far future. Daniel: That's right. Cool. Stay tuned. Is this the end? Matt: So I guess last question, is there anything we haven't talked about that you want the audience to know about you or about Kidspy? Daniel: LinkedIn people, if you're out there, please DM me or respond to our emails. Those are my final words. I mean, if you want to know, if you, if you wanna know more about me, obviously, I have a very large digital footprint on many social media platforms, so I don't, I don't need to promote those more. Matt: Allison, thanks again for coming on the show. Daniel: Thank you for having me. This is probably the most we've laughed on a show in a while. Matt: Good, good. That's really good.