The grass isn't always greener: Matt Huang's full story

Transcription

Daniel: In the spirit of switching up formats of Connection Accepted, we're going to switch this one up by starting with Matt's story. And not just the when he started posting on LinkedIn story, but the Matt Huang story. So Matt, I'm going to let you take the wheel here, tell us your story, and I'm just going to ask questions that I find interesting as we go. How does that sound? Matt: Yeah, let's do it. I'll start pretty high level and then Daniel, you can dig in and unpeel the layers of the onion here. But for those of you who don't know who I am or it's your first time listening to the pod, I am originally from the Boston area. I grew up in the Northeast, went to Georgetown for my undergrad and worked in investment banking after I graduated. Also worked in management consulting at BCG and then eventually at Google in one of their internal strategy teams before now going all in on one, this podcast, but two, my own ghostwriting agency specifically focused on LinkedIn. So yeah, that's kind of the rundown. I mean, I have also been making content for years at this point, mostly video content actually on YouTube, started a YouTube channel about two and a half years ago and scaled that to over 170,000 today. But LinkedIn is also one of my focuses right now. As of this year, I started posting and Daniel and I both bonded over that obsession and love in LinkedIn as a platform. And there's a ton of potential there that I'm sure we'll get into today. Daniel: Matt, that was a good answer, but I feel like that was the ChatGPT answer of who Matt Huang is. What if we started in middle school? Where did you go to middle school in Boston? I don't know if this is probably embarrassing. I don't even know the answer to this, but what was your middle school like and how did that go into high school? Matt: Yeah, I've never publicly really talked about my childhood or like the early days. So the town that I grew up in is like a fairly, I want to say like middle-class town in like closer to central Massachusetts. So I went to public high school growing up and high school probably had, oh no, sorry, I need to go even further back to middle school. In middle school, I was a good student. I was, I was kind of like the the quiet kid in class. So, you know, I would, I would do my homework and I would listen to all the teachers and everything. Like I was never a troublemaker, but I honestly don't think that in middle school I had a very strong idea of who I was or even like who I wanted to be. Which, when you're like 10, 11 years old, you definitely don't need to, to know. But my, both my parents, they, they work in healthcare, so they're like medical professionals. And that was like the only world that I really knew. And, and none of the kids in my town, even going to high school, were interested in business or had parents who worked in finance or consulting, any of these jobs. I simply didn't even know they existed. Daniel: Everyone was very focused on STEM and becoming an engineer or going to medical school, things like that. After you graduated middle school, was there like a competitive selection process for your high school or how'd you end up at the high school you did? Matt: You know, this is a really good question. I went to the public high school in my town, but ironically, my older brother went to this like all boys prep school that, you know, you had like to take a test to get in and it was a private school. They had like better sports programs, better, honestly, they had better counselors and better outcomes in terms of where kids would graduate and go to college. And I remember like really wanting to go to this school, this all boys school, because my brother went there. And my dad was like, yeah, okay, well, you know, well, you can take the entrance exam and everything, but like, honestly, like I'm not convinced that it's actually gonna make that big of a difference. And also, it's unclear like the ROI on what we're spending to send your brother there at the moment. So I went and I took the entrance exam for this school and, you know, did pretty well. I got like a very small scholarship, but ultimately at that time, given like my family's situation and everything, they were just like, Matt, just go to the public high school. Like we think you're gonna be fine. And so I was, I remember being a little bit upset, a little bit resentful about it, but then I was like, all right, I need to, you know, I need to, I need to work hard and be at like the top of my class at this high school because if I want to go to a really good university, then, you know, usually like every year at the public high school, like if you were in like the top 10 to 20% of your class, then you would, you would probably go to like a top 20 university. And that was my, that was my goal in high school. So I went to high school with like 500 other kids in my class. It was fairly sizable and was pretty involved. Like played, was a three-season athlete, played in the orchestra, was like very involved with music and did a bunch of clubs and extracurriculars. So that was kind of my mindset going into high school. It was really just let me, let me try to do everything I can to get into a good school. But I still didn't have any idea of what I actually wanted to do. Daniel: You're grinding since freshman year. I, I, I really respect that. Okay. Well, I didn't want to interrupt you, but like, there's also some stories that I can tell around like, I was not actually the best student. I was, I make it sound like I was grinding, uh, and I was doing a lot of these things, but I think I didn't try as hard as I probably could have. Uh, I played a lot of video games in like freshman and sophomore year, a lot of video games. Matt: And, uh, you know, I was like one of those kids where I didn't put in a hundred percent effort, but if I put in like 75, 80, 80%, I would still manage to like get like decently good grades, but I wasn't like valedictorian. I was probably like number like 15 or 16 in my class. So I wasn't in like the top 10. I remember the top 10, they got to go to some like fancy, uh ceremony with the superintendent. And I was kind of like, oh yeah, like Matt's really smart, but like he, he like tries decently hard, but he's not like, he's not like number one. So I think that's some important context to also share. Daniel: That is, and I can relate a lot to that. What games were you playing video games, freshman and sophomore year? Matt: Oh, dude, there was, so I played a lot of, uh, I had an Xbox. My older brother and I, we, we, I remember like we bought an Xbox 360 for like 200 bucks back in, God, I don't know when this was, but we like spent our own money, saved up for it. And then we were playing a lot of like, uh, Halo and Call of Duty. And then also on the computer, because then my, my parents, they really didn't like us playing video games during the week. But like, you know, if I was like working on my laptop, I could also get away with playing some video games during the week. So I would play uh League of Legends. I would play this other game that probably no one has heard of, but called Realm of the Mad God, which is like this eight bit shooter pixelated uh MMO RPG, which for people that don't know what I'm talking about, massive multiplayer online role-playing game. That's what it stands for. You basically have like a little character and, you know, you like wanna level up and like buy all the gear and then you, you, it's multiplayer, but everyone's on the same side. So like you're all just going on quests with like hundreds of other people trying to kill monsters and get loot. And the worst thing about this game was it was a permadeath game. So like one, you would invest like 20, 30, 40 hours into building and leveling up your character. And if you just for some reason had like laggy internet or something, and then you were in a dungeon, you could get killed and lose everything, all of your progress. You could never get it back. And that was so frustrating, but also made it very, very addicting. Yeah. That, that was kind of what my many hours of my high school days were spent doing. Daniel: Was there any sort of revelation after freshman and sophomore year where you stopped video gaming as much, or is that pretty much your whole high school experience? Matt: Yeah. I think around sophomore year, there was this one very specific moment that made me realize I need to actually, I need to actually try. And if I don't make a change, then my life is probably not going to be headed in the direction that I want it to. And that was when I was on a Discord server. Matt: So, you know, I was like on a call with a bunch of people and a lot of these guys, they were like full grown adults playing this game. The guys who were like level 100 and had like the, the, the most cool gear that all the, the kids like me at the time really, really wanted. They were like some 40 year old dude in Australia playing the game with like a bunch Daniel: That's a powerful story. So then do you quit cold turkey video games and start locking it on school, or what are your next steps there? Matt: So another important thing happened, which was that I discovered the gym in my junior year of high school. So all that time that I was probably spending originally just like gaming started slowly moving over to, like, more physical things. Like I said, I was still pretty involved with sports. So I would play tennis in the spring. I would usually do like cross country in the fall. And then in the winter, I would do winter track. So I was pretty busy. And then obviously I had my musical extracurriculars as well. So it was a pretty busy time. But any remaining time that originally went to video games was starting to shift over to just, like, getting more dialed in on athletics, on my extracurriculars, and then trying to also study for the SAT in junior year because college apps would come up soon. So, I mean, you know, Daniel, that stuff takes a lot of time, and my parents were pretty focused on that, on making sure that I did well in that. So it wasn't that I stopped completely playing video games. I still did, but it was just less. Daniel: What made you choose the SAT over the ACT? Matt: At the time, the SAT was still the dominant, I think it was still more dominant. Like, more people were taking it. There were still, there were some people taking the ACT, but I was like, why would you take this newer version of this test if, like, the SAT has been around for longer? I'm pretty sure the SAT was around before the ACT, but someone correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong there. So that was just the one that I studied. I honestly didn't think about it that much. Like some people told me, yeah, the ACT is a little bit easier in certain sections, but I'm the type of guy that I like to stick to the tradition. And so that's what I studied for. Daniel: I respect it. You grind the SAT. I'm sure you got an insane score. And you're grinding apps. And what was that application and decision process like for you? Matt: It was a grind. It was brutal. I remember I applied to like 20 schools, which is not, I don't recommend. Daniel: I did the same thing. I applied to 21. Matt: I, yeah, I do not recommend it. And in retrospect, I think I probably could have gotten a better outcome if maybe I had focused on a smaller set of schools and just, like, making sure that the applications were super high quality. But at the time, like I said, my goal was, like, I want to go to like a top 20 school. Matt: And when I was in high school, I honestly didn't really think that colleges and universities were that different, which was a very naive thing to think, because now we know, like, the experience is very different depending on what school you go to. But I was just a sucker for prestige. So I just, I just looked at the U.S. News top 20 and then I was like, I'm going to apply to 20 of these. And on the Common App, I just, like, selected everything. And then I had like a few safeties, of course. But then the ironic thing is, like, because of that approach and because of me thinking that every college was the same, a lot of my application essays weren't super convincing, and they didn't really show that I was a candidate that had really, really, like, done my research on Brown, for example. And so I ended up only getting into a couple of the, like, two or three out of like the 20 schools that I applied to that were, like, the reach schools, technically. One of them was, you know, this school in Atlanta called Emory that I'd never visited, but for some reason, I wanted to go really far from home as well. At that time, I was looking to, like, spread my wings. So I told my parents, I'm gonna go to school in Atlanta. And yeah, that was sort of how it started. I didn't even visit. The first time I stepped foot on campus was orientation. Daniel: Wow. It's, hearing you, Matt, is honestly like a literal copy of what I was like in high school because I had the same thing. I applied to, I was a total prestige snob. That's all I wanted in this application process. And okay, so you're at Emory. You get there for the first time in Atlanta. And I think it's, is it in Decatur too? Matt: Yeah. Daniel: I'm sure this is much different than Worcester, Mass. What's going through your head and what are you thinking as a first-year freshman at Emory in Decatur? Matt: Dude, honestly, it was a big shock. I had never lived by myself before, you know, academics and everything aside, just like being, I don't know how many miles it is from, from Boston, but you know, it's pretty far, even though you're in the same time zone, physically you are, you're quite removed from, from the rest of my family. And so there was that aspect of it. And then also academically coming from a public high school where I would say the classes were decently like moderately rigorous to like a pretty rigorous research university. And by the way, I was pre-med, so I was taking, like, lab chemistry, physics, all of like those fun requirements that pre-med students take. I wasn't used to the, the level of rigor. And also I was not used to the fact that in university and in college, the professor doesn't really hold your hand at all. So it's up to you if you want to completely slack off and not even show up to class. You can do that if you want to go super hard and attend office hours every single week, like you can also do that. And this freedom was new to me. Daniel: I had grown up in a, you know, like a Asian household, whatever you want to call it with like, you know, fairly, I wouldn't say my parents were the most strict, but with the video game example, of course, they didn't let us, you know, just play whenever we wanted and. Going from like that to, wow, now I can play video games all day if I want. And no one will really know. That was, that took a lot of adjustment. I think I also was really lonely in the beginning because I wasn't used to like this completely new environment and like every, you know, all the people were new. My family wasn't around. Nobody from my high school went to Emory that year. I was like the first one who had ever gotten in to Emory from my high school. And then there was just, yeah, there was a lot of unfamiliar faces. Matt: So I remember I was also a little bit lonely as well, just getting used to that. I was pretty lonely my freshman year too. At what point did you say, okay, I'm going to send in some transfer apps? And what was the thought process behind it? Was it more because of the loneliness? Did you just want more prestige? Or what was your thought process going like when you were transferring? Daniel: Honestly, this was the early sign that I was afflicted with grass is greener syndrome, because after a semester at Emory, I was pretty unhappy academically. I was doing great. I had like a 4.0 GPA. I was actually like getting involved with some clubs, but deep down, I just, outside of the academics, I just wasn't happy. And I would say, you know, I was fairly like isolated as well in terms of like, I wouldn't really do that much besides go to classes, go to the gym, you know, hang out with like some of the people in my dorm, but then, you know, really wasn't like being super social or anything like that at the time. And you combine that with the being far away from family and everything that I knew up until that point. And so it was pretty tough mentally. And so naturally I was trying to think of ways to not escape, but like, I was like, there's gotta be something better situation that I can put myself in. And then you combine that with me hearing about this thing called investment banking in my freshman year of college because, you know, I attended some of these club meetings and they're like, there's this job on Wall Street called investment banking and you can make, or you can make like six figures as a 22-year-old and you're closing multi-billion dollar mergers and acquisitions. And it's this whole sexy Wolf of Wall Street persona and idea. And I start to think to myself, oh, like this sounds like a better idea than med school. Med school sounds like it's going to be more pain from like all the difficult classes. And I'm going to have to go to four more years of medical school. And then after that, I'm probably gonna have to do like a couple of years of residency. Daniel: And then, you know, God knows if I like specialize in something or want to do like surgery and then I have to do like a fellowship and basically I'd be 30-something by the time I start making the real money. And so long story short, I sort of rationalized it by looking at it from the career angle of like, okay, I want to get into investment banking, but also there's like that personal angle of grass is greener. Like, I don't like it here. I wonder if it's better at another school. So that was the genesis of me thinking of transferring. Yeah, I've never talked about this publicly, but basically it was, it was at that time. It was like I was very unhappy and I was also going through like a, a career pivot in my mind and wanted to do everything in my power to, to get that job on Right after your freshman year and go to Georgetown. So I actually was accepted as a second semester sophomore transfer. So actually it was, I had a year and a half at Emory before I transferred to Georgetown. Once you get there, are you all in on the investment banking pipeline? Yeah, dude. I was drinking, I was chugging the Kool-Aid at that point. You know, I joke about it now, but at the time, I think I had the most ginormous ego, especially after I landed the offer and had like a summer internship at a bank in New York. Like I had a massive ego. Huge. Like I just remember rolling up to like some party and then like telling some girl that, oh yeah, like I'm, yeah, I've got an internship in New York at this investment bank and thinking like she'd be like impressed. But you know, I think that's just a lustra, that just illustrates the kind of mindset that I had at the time. Now, I was so obsessed with getting into investment banking. My username on Wall Street Oasis was Banker or Bust. And you know, like I'm probably outing my son now. People are going to go look it up. But when I say I was 110% ready to like go into banking or die, like that was the mindset that I had. And I think to an extent, that is kind of the level of grit and determination that you do need to have when you're trying to break into a really competitive industry like that. But it was hard. It was hard. It was not an easy journey by any means. Matt: And in your defense here as well, to break into investment banking is someone whose parents don't know anything about investment banking. I don't know if your brother did it, but like you're pretty much coming in totally cold to this industry. You're trying to figure out, and for someone totally fresh, it kind of does take that level of obsession. And once you get it, that story of telling a girl mad about your internship reminded me of a common theme I've seen to face a lot in life, which is like when I got the 35 on the ACT, I thought I was going to instantly get into Brown. Well, I didn't. I got deferred. And like nothing changed in my life really the next day when I went to school and had the 35. Like everyone treated me the same. Daniel: It wasn't like girls were going to talk to me because of it. And then once I get into Brown, the same thing happens. And then you try to get into a club at Brown, and then it's like, maybe you get in and then the same thing happens. So it's not like, while these things like investment banking or whatever job you have seems big in the moment, in reality, it doesn't mean as much as you think it is and that you talk up in your head. Matt: You articulated it so well, Daniel. I don't even know what to add. I think you hit the nail on the head. And this took me time to eventually realize. It took multiple iterations of me wanting something, getting it, and then realizing, oh, like, OK, like this is fine, but like, I'm ready for the next thing. And then like continuously playing that game multiple times. It started with, yeah, I want to transfer to Georgetown because grass is greener. And then it got to like, yeah, let me get the job in investment banking because like that's totally gonna solve all of my problems and my life's going to like be magically amazing once I'm a banker. And then getting there and then realizing, oh, OK, like that's maybe not that not it. And then going like, OK, maybe consulting is like a little bit better. Let me go to BCG and test it out there. Maybe it's just banking sucks and client advisory can still be fun, but maybe I need to do it from a consulting angle. And then realizing, okay, even at a consulting firm, like there are issues and there are things that people don't like. Like, let me go jump over to like a big tech company. And so obviously you can see, like, it took multiple reps until I got to the point where I realized I was looking at my career in the wrong way. Daniel: I love that. I don't want to get too sidetracked from our timeline though. So you get the job in investment banking. You have a good summer internship. Any big things that junior, senior year at Georgetown? Because, I mean, you got the job and the offer so early in investment banking. It's crazy. Matt: I do want to say COVID hit in spring of 2020. And so my entire senior year. Daniel: What year is this? Matt: Oh, you're a senior. Okay. Well, 2021 was the year I graduated. So like my junior summer internship at that investment bank ended up being remote, which was a terrible experience. And my senior year as well, nobody could be, nobody could go to campus. So it was a very different experience, I think, than in most folks. But, you know, for better or for worse, I think about it now and I'm sometimes I say, wow, it's kind of tragic that I only spent really like a year to a year and a half on campus at Georgetown, but then also I was able to spend a lot of time with my family during that time, which we never, we never have that ability to do these days because we're all adults and, you know, living in different parts of the U.S. Pros and cons. Daniel: But I think senior year, I went in again with a lot of ego thinking that because I had the investment banking job in New York, I was, was better than other people who didn't have that. And I think it was just a year of really like anticipating eventually moving to New York because I was stuck at home in Boston. You know, there wasn't really that much to do. Uh, the one thing I did do that year was just fully dedicate myself to doing well in, in school because I had so much time on my hands. That, so I got like a 4.0, I remember senior year where, where, whereas most people would have like a senior slide where they kind of slack off a little bit, especially if they have the banking offer lined up. But for me, I was so bored at home that I just wanted to, I was like, let me challenge myself. Let me try to get like a perfect 4.0 for senior year. In retrospect, it helped because I thought to myself, like eventually if I did want to apply to business school or recruit for, for private equity or something like that, like it would help to have a, as high of a, as competitive of a resume as possible. But that, that was mostly my senior year. Matt: So you're now in person at Salomon Partners, right? Daniel: Yes. Matt: Okay. In person in New York at the investment banking job. What's going on now? Because I'm sure it's a much different experience in person than it was virtually over the summer. Daniel: Yeah, it was a eye-opening experience. You know, working 80 hours a week when you're remote is very different than doing it in person. I knew coming in that I was going to be doing a lot, but when you actually experience it, I think it's a different eye-opening experience. Anyone can sit there and say, oh yeah, like, uh, whatever. Like I can work 80 hours a week. It doesn't matter. Like I could totally do that. But when you actually are forced to, to do it and it's not just the hours, I think this is a really important thing to call out. It's not just the hours that you're working. It's what you're actually doing in those hours and the inability to control your own schedule. That's what's most painful. And I think anyone who's worked in investment banking will agree with me. When you don't know if you can even go out to dinner with your girlfriend on like a Friday night or a Saturday night without suddenly getting a ping and then having to run back to the office to address some comments. Like that's a really frustrating thing. And I remember in the beginning, my siblings would laugh about it. We would all laugh about it. We'd be, we'd be like, ha, ha, ha, Matt got hit by the please fix, which is a joke that, you know, your MD, they'll message you like, please fix. And then like, you better address the comments. And we even had an album, a shared album of photos that they would take of me where we were in public places, whether it be on vacation or in a restaurant where I would have my laptop pulled out and I would be working because I got comments. Daniel: And it started out as a joke and it was all good fun for, you know, maybe like the first couple months. And eventually it just got old really, really quick because I realized this sucks. Like I have no control over my schedule. My bosses, like, it's really hard to, and this is the other thing. I, I felt guilty asking for time off. I felt very guilty asking for time off. I remember I took one day off my first year. It was like around July 4th. I was trying to go like camping with my girlfriend at the time. And we were going to like a campground where there wasn’t going to be much internet. So I told my team, hey guys, like going to be like out of office for, you know, just for like the day or so. I remember just feeling super guilty for no good reason. But I think that is kind of the mindset that gets drilled into you when you work in these kinds of careers, these high powered roles where you almost feel bad for not being a hundred percent responsive, a hundred percent of the time. Matt: Now I could go on and on, but there, there were many instances like that where, you know. Those are things that are really tough. And, yeah, I can just relate with you so much right now. I could go on and on. I think, though, beyond, obviously, the lack of control over your schedule and all that, I think there's going to be some people that may say, oh, yeah, but you're like 22. Like, that's the time to grind in your 20s. And I think it’s important to call out, like, something, which is, it wasn't purely the, oh, I can't take time off. Boohoo. It was also this feeling inside of me that started off very small and then got stronger and stronger as I looked at people around me at the firm. And, you know, nothing, nothing against the firm. Like, but as I looked at people that were older than me in the bank, I began to question whether or not that was the current path was leading me towards a future that I wanted. Daniel: So there are so many examples of this, but, you know, you look at your managing director externally, he's doing really well. He's got like a couple houses, you know, he's got like a wife and kids, but he is constantly, constantly working in a way, even the biggest Rainmaker at Goldman Sachs is beholden to the clients. And there's this famous, I feel like I'm going super off track here, but there's this famous YouTube video by a guy named Jim Donovan, who's like a managing director at Goldman Sachs, who teaches at UVA's Darden School of Business. And there’s this viral video with millions of views where he basically talks about, like, what does it take to be an investment banker? And one of the things he talks about is how he prides himself in answering the phone within like 30 seconds, no matter where he is in the world, no matter what time it is, even if it's like 2:00 in the morning, if a client calls him, like, he answers the phone. And I think it’s admirable and it's impressive that he does that and that, you know, that's probably contributed to his success. Daniel: But I remember watching that as well at some point because someone had sent it to me and thinking like, dude, that sounds like, that sounds like it sucks. Like, imagine you're, I don't know, at your grandma's funeral and then your client calls you and you have to, you have to pick up within 30 seconds. I think that was one of the moments that made me realize there's, I value more than just my career, as much as I do, like, want to achieve a lot in it. Matt: So you then decide to pursue something equally as intense upon your time or probably a little bit less, actually, and recruit for consulting. When did you start doing that and what was that process like for you? Daniel: Yeah, I would say I was about a year in. Did you even think about private equity too? Like, what were you thinking about during these days? Because I'm sure people probably already even had private equity jobs at this point. Matt: Yeah, like I said, I think at the time I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, but a year in and I was already, even six months in and I knew this was not something I wanted to continue doing for longer than I had to. So when the on-cycle private equity recruiting process kicked off, which for people not familiar with it, it happens very, very soon after you start as a first year. I jumped on that train and interviewed at a bunch of places. Actually had a private equity offer at a middle market shop in New York. At the same time, though, serendipitously, at the time, was a lot of demand for consulting hires. The market was super hot. Everyone was hiring. They were raising salaries across the board at banks and at consulting firms. And my older brother was a former consultant. He introduced me to a few folks and I started networking around. At one point, I told him, like, I was pretty miserable. And he said, why don't you think about consulting? Like, it might be better for you. You still get to look at businesses. You still get to work on interesting projects. And like, it'll still set you up pretty well for your career, regardless of what direction you do want to take. So I ended up interviewing only at two firms. Interviewed at BCG and then I interviewed at a firm called L.E.K, got the offer at both of them, and then also had the offer with the private equity firm around that same time. And so this was one of those moments in my career where I think if I was only focused on making money, I would have gone with the private equity offer, or I would have stayed in banking and just gotten promoted. But I took a pay cut to go to BCG. And I think this is one of the early signs in my career of, like, maybe I don't actually optimize purely for, for money in my work, at least not in like the short term. There's something else at play. Daniel: My initial reaction was, why didn't you apply to Bain? But I'm going to ignore that initial gut reaction. Matt: And so did you still then have to work out or work and finish through your investment banking contract and couldn't move over right away? Or could you move over to BCG right away? Daniel: I wanted to obviously get my bonus, so I waited, I waited. I asked BCG if I could start after I got my bonus. Technically, at the investment bank, the expectation is you stay there for two years, but it wasn't a binding contract or anything like that. So I actually left before that. I was about a year and a half in. Matt: And You get bonuses on the half year? Daniel: No, we get bonuses after a year. Matt: Oh, but is it the calendar year? Daniel: No, it's like August. Matt: So then why was it a year and a half? Daniel: Because I'd started in June and I lapped in like September. So, yeah, it was about like a year and a half at that point. But yeah, got my bonus and then like literally put my notice in the next day. And I remember thinking, I'm going to piss off someone because they just paid me my bonus and then now I'm about to leave. And I remember being really scared, like really scared that I was going to burn bridges and this and that. And this is also another theme that's kind of happened throughout my life is like at the start, I'm really scared that I'm going to like upset some people. And then in reality, no one really gets that upset. If anything, they're actually really supportive after I told them that I was leaving, especially once I heard where I was going. And, you know, one of my managing directors even called me up afterwards and was like, yeah, like, you know, BCG is a great firm. Like, stay in touch. Matt: Yeah. So I think it's a great lesson. I mean, your, your MD really at the end of the day, they do want you to be happy. And like, they're not going to go out of their way to pursue harm on you just because, like, you're trying to live your dreams, like at the end of the day. So, yeah, that's a good lesson. Daniel: 100%. Take me through BCG now. Matt: Oh, yeah. So the BCG years, there was a lot that happened here. I remember when I started at BCG, I genuinely told myself, I'm going to try to stop having grass is greener syndrome. I'm going to be open to the possibility that my career can be built here. And so rather than thinking, trying to think about, like, OK, what can I do after BCG before I even started, like, let me go into this with an open mind with the possibility that maybe I'll just enjoy it. And maybe I will just want to be promoted and become a partner one day at BCG. And so I go in. It's a very different experience than working at the investment bank because I've noticed the culture at consulting firms is a lot more collaborative. And also in finance, I think this is maybe like a finance and a law thing, but these are very conservative industries where you kind of just want to put your head down and you don't really want to stand out. You just want to do things exactly as they're given to you as an analyst. Daniel: Whereas I feel like at BCG, and maybe you feel this at Bain, it's like, yeah, you have to follow the directions and everything, but they kind of value your opinion, even if you're a first year. So if you do want to, like, contribute to some team discussion or whatnot, like, absolutely, you can do that. So it was a very different experience. It felt a lot more collaborative to me. The projects that I worked on were really different because one of them was like a three month long implementation. You know, another one, the next one was like a two week private equity due diligence, you know, and then, you know, I'd do like a six week, like, growth strategy. So there was all sorts of stuff. And I realized really quickly, wow, the experience in consulting is so much more diverse than in banking. In banking, there was only ever really two different types of projects. Like, we would either be working on, like, a merger or an acquisition, or we would be doing a capital raise. So you compare that, like, very narrow scope to suddenly consulting where there's like, God knows how many different types of projects of different lengths. And then every single team you work on is different. Every single manager on every project is usually different as well. So it was both a good and a bad thing. Good in the sense of exposure to many different things, bad in the sense of I am someone who likes consistency. And if I work with someone that I really like. Intelligence projects, which ironically, like Bain is very well known for. And, you know, Jonathan Krug, the North America head of private equity at BCG, actually worked at, or I guess he worked at Bain Capital, not Bain. But those types of projects are very short relative to the typical consulting project. And because the client is usually like KKR or Blackstone, they tend to be more intense and the expectations are like really high and like they're paying you, I don't know, like at least like a few million for like a two to three, two to four week sprint. So there's a, you know, it tends to be pretty intense from an hours perspective, even though you're not traveling. And I remember, I remember in the beginning, like I really wanted to join that team. And then near the end of my tenure, I was like, Oh, I'm done doing these. Like I want to do something else. But yeah, pros and cons. Matt: At what point in your BCG tenure did you start the YouTube channel? Daniel: I started the YouTube channel when I was about six, probably nine months into BCG. I was still a first year, nine months into BCG. And for some reason, I thought it was a good idea to start producing YouTube videos. Matt: Did you have any plan then? Did you have like a business plan, some sort of like videos laid out or what was your strategy? Or like, did you have like a story of why you started your YouTube channel? I've been asked this question so many times. Daniel: You need to at least make up a story because I feel like with all these founders, they have a founding story that they tell a thousand times. And I'm sure every time they've told it, it's gotten different. It's just a story they stick with at that point. Maybe like half of it's true. So I feel like, you know, you got to practice this. Matt: Yeah, I do have a story. I do have a story that I continue to tell people. You know, I say usually that there was, like, I wanted to do something creative. Growing up, I was, you know, involved with like music and like arts. And I think I was naturally a kind of like curious and creative person. So I lost that when I started working because you get sort of molded into whatever the corporate, you know, you get molded into whatever position, whatever company you're working at. And so you lose that unless you're intentional about doing it outside of work. Now, did I want to be a YouTuber? No, that was not a specific goal that I had. I wanted to do something that was a little bit more productive than just like playing League with my roommate at the time. Like him and I were just depressed when we were working in banking. He worked at another bank that was even sweatier and notoriously just horrible hours. And him and I, like we would bond by playing League of Legends at like 2 in the morning and just like being like, wow, this is this is life. Like this is, this is what we worked so hard for. But what I'm trying to get at is I had this desire to create something, be a little bit more productive. And I tried a bunch of different things. Like I tried writing a blog. I tried publishing like some Seeking Alpha articles, which are like stock pitches. You know, it didn't really stick because I don't think I was really that passionate about it or that interested. And one day I'm like watching some personal development content on YouTube. And someone's talking about like how starting a YouTube channel in 2023 or 2022 is like a great idea and you can make like, you know, you can make a lot of money from it if you turn it into a business, blah, blah, blah. And so I was kind of like drawn into that. The advice they gave us, Hey, if you're not going to, like, I challenge you, post your first video in the next 24 hours because if you don't do it, you never will. And I took that up as a challenge and I was like, you know what? Okay. Like I got nothing to really lose here, relatively speaking. And so I propped my phone up on my laptop and then I just filmed a very quick seven-minute video, edited it with some random free editing software, didn't have any clue on what I was doing, slapped on some really loud background music and then posted it within 24 hours. And then after that, I was like, you know what? That was kind of fun. Like it's got like two views and you know, those views are my family, but that was kind of fun. I want to keep doing this. Daniel: And so I decided to just keep posting every single week for at least six to 12 months before quitting. Just didn't want to have any regrets around that. As you're going through BCG, you have your YouTube channel is taking off, and then you're recruiting, get the job at Google. What was that recruiting process like? And did you think about going all in on your YouTube channel when you knew, you know, you were probably going to transition out of BCG? Matt: Yeah, I did. I did think about it. I do want to caveat, though, at the time, my YouTube channel was not that big. I think by the time I left BCG, I had around 10,000 subscribers. The majority of the growth has actually happened over the last year. At the time, I wasn't confident in my ability to also do YouTube as like a full-time thing. But yeah, it was honestly, man, like I was really burnt out by the end of the BCG days. I think there was a part of me that wanted to maybe do YouTube full time, but mentally, I wasn't in a position to be like going all in on that, especially with that level of like uncertainty. So I, yeah, I was just recruiting around for mostly tech companies, a few other firms as well. But when the Google role came through, that was like a blessing in disguise. I was like, wow, finally, this seems like the perfect opportunity where I'll be able to have more time to do content and explore other potential interests as well outside of work. Daniel: And hopefully it'll also be like interesting work as well. Work-life balance, something that you've never heard of before. Matt: Yeah. Once you got to Google, what was that like on your first day? I mean, that's like even crazy for me to think about. It's a massive company that everyone uses every day. Daniel: Ah, yeah, it was surreal. I remember showing up and just being amazed at everything that was in the office. And then like I would, you know, I got breakfast with my manager on my first day. I was like, wow, like this food is so good. This is amazing. I got to come here and get free breakfast every day. There's like a barista in the office, the perks and everything. I mean, it was, it was, I was in, I had like a whole honeymoon phase. And then I realized, you know, they don't even have just one office. They've got like seven or eight, closer to like eight or nine offices in all of New York. And yeah, it was, it was crazy. It was surreal. Matt: How did you choose which office to work out of? Daniel: It was just based on where your specific team was based. So my team was based out of like, you know, the, the office that I worked out of, but you had flexibility. Like people would visit other offices and basically work out of different offices for fun on Fridays. So it was an awesome experience. Matt: Okay, so in your Google honeymoon, you're posting on YouTube, your YouTube's growing like crazy. When do you even think to start Forge or like think about LinkedIn and kind of bring us to today. Daniel: Basically at Google, I worked with mostly B2B marketers. Daniel: And essentially, to give a quick overview of like what my job even was, we were a strategy team that was embedded within the marketing organization. So our, like my main boss, if you want to call it, or stakeholder that I had to support was like a director or VP of marketing. And so naturally everything that we would talk about is like, what's our strategy? Like, what do we want to do? Like how do we market Google products so that more people spend on them? How do we win over our competitors like Meta, Amazon, things like that? And so I got exposed to a lot of things that I'd never seen before as a consultant and as a banker. I never worked on any marketing projects when I was in BCG. So I was completely new to this. And it took me a little bit to realize like, this is what a go-to-market strategy actually looks like. Like these are the different parts of it. Organic content actually happens to be like part of it. I just happened to have a YouTube channel. I never intended to work with marketers at Google. But those two things eventually sort of like led me to today because one, I love content and it's something that I just find very interesting and that I see myself continuing to do for pretty much the rest of my life. But two, I learned a lot about LinkedIn and realized like there's actually a pretty big opportunity here. It's part of like the marketing strategy. So I start posting on LinkedIn probably over the summer of 2025 this year. And initially I didn't know that it was going to lead to me running this business, but I just kept posting and realized, wow, like my content's getting some good traction and, you know, people are messaging me and eventually, you know, I see other people's posts like yours, Daniel, and I'm messaging you and I'm making all these great connections. I just want to commit to it for at least a year, usually, because in my experience, if you do that, like, it's, that's the amount of time that it takes to see substantial results. Matt: So before you decided to make any LinkedIn post about Forge, did you just try to get someone to pay you to test it out first, or when did you, like, decide to publicly make the announcement of Forge? Daniel: This was in June or July. Yeah, I remember I posted for probably like two weeks before I like actually mentioned anything about Forge. And I didn't know if it was actually gonna work, to be quite honest. I just worked for... I made a post that was like, oh yeah, I'm looking to help like three to five founders grow their LinkedIn presence. Like DM me if you're interested in working together. And I was basically... I had no clue what I was doing, man. I jumped into this call and I offered to work for free, because I had massive imposter syndrome around, like, do I even deserve to charge you thousands of dollars a month to create content for you? Like, I don't even know if I can... I don't even know if I have the ability to help someone else grow their following. Daniel: I've done it myself, but that doesn't necessarily translate over into, like, I can definitely help someone else grow their following. Like, there's a higher probability that I could, but in my mind, it didn't feel like I deserved to really like charge money for it. So I worked for free, basically, for a month at least, and it was a grind. I was writing, you know, five posts a day, five posts a week for audience and context. Matt's AirPods died, so we're starting this episode from like three quarters again with a little 30-second intermission. So Matt, do you want to take us back to where we were talking about your work with FreeForge? Matt: Absolutely. I'd love to walk you through it. So to take a step back, how I even got the idea to start Forge, which is a LinkedIn marketing agency. What this means is we help companies market their products or services on LinkedIn more effectively. Now, there's a few different ways you can do that. There's things like ads, and then there's things like content, and there's other levers as well, but content is primarily where we specialize because that's where my expertise is. And I learned at Google, working with B2B marketers, that LinkedIn was a really important platform to have in your marketing strategy, regardless of what business you are. As long as you're selling to other businesses, or as long as your customers, say you're a coaching company, as long as your customers are active on the platform, you should be posting content on that platform. So that's what we help businesses with. And it kind of combined unexpectedly a bunch of different skills that I've developed over the years. Because writing good content is one thing, but it's a lot easier to do it when it's just your own account because you control everything and you are the one that decides what gets posted. But when you're writing it for another person who has a business goal in mind, it's not just about getting impressions now. They want more customers. And those two things are kind of related, but they're not really the same. So let me give you an example. Somebody can post a post that gets a million impressions, or on LinkedIn's case, you know, viral is like 100,000 or 200,000 impressions. So they can post something that gets 200,000 impressions, but that may not necessarily lead to any new customers. Conversely, you could post a piece of content that, quote-unquote, flops and only gets like a couple thousand impressions, but if those impressions are the right people and that post is written in the right way, then that could book you a bunch of sales calls that do lead to customers. So that's a really important distinction. And when you think about how do I do that for someone else, it starts getting very difficult because you need to be able to work with another senior exec or like a founder who often has a very specific idea of what they wanna create. Matt: But then you also need to coach them enough to inject your knowledge of what will actually perform in the LinkedIn algorithm. And you need to be able to tell them, hey, I actually don't think that what you have right now is going to work. We should maybe tweak it in this way, or you know, we should adjust this photo because what we've seen is that, you know, photos with people perform better than just the generic photo with a logo, for example. So there's that coachability and that almost like client management aspect that I learned from consulting and from at Google unexpectedly became very useful. And also you have to be able to think about high-level strategy for them because a lot of times people don't have a structure with their content. So they don't know what to be posting on a daily basis, or maybe they're just throwing random stuff at the wall. So some of the value also is in helping them develop that structure. And I've realized it's combined my own content experience with YouTube and LinkedIn with my consulting strategy background from my professional career into this one thing where I'm now running a business that helps other businesses with content. That's awesome. I'm bullish on Forge. Are there any other questions? Daniel: Well, I guess, should we go from, I guess, that point in June to now of quitting Google? I forgot to mention that. What was that like for you, ultimately making the decision to quit Google, go all in on Forge, and this podcast from this random dude on LinkedIn that somehow convinced you to do that as well? Matt: You know, honestly, I've had a lot of people tell me not to do Forge. Daniel: Me being one of them sometimes. Matt: That's true. Daniel is one of them, but, you know, he's not alone. And I, and I don't think that... I don't disagree with a lot of the things that, the objections that typically come up when I tell people that I'm running an agency. I will say, I think my take is more nuanced too. I don't think, I think it's for like a separate episode and I don't... I'm like super supportive of Forge and think like it's insane the results you're getting and like, I think any company would be so smart to hire you and I'm like sending you clients left and right. So I'm not bearish on the company or you at all, just to make that clear for the audience as well. Matt: 100%. 100%. Yeah, for the audience, like, Daniel is totally supportive of the of the agency as well. I think that in June when I had the idea, something that I've benefited from having scaled the YouTube channel previously is I've learned a really important lesson in business and just maybe not even business, but like life in general, which is, like whenever you start out and you are doing anything of significance or you have a goal that you want to achieve. In the beginning, there's going to be a lot of uncertainty and you're gonna have a lot of doubt around whether or not you can even do it. And people that you talk to may give you advice. Matt: The advice may contradict itself sometimes, even if it all comes from a good place, but that is actually the moment and the time in the very beginning, in probably like the first year, where you, you owe it to yourself not to just be swayed by every other opinion that some stranger or maybe not even a stranger, like, throws at you. You should take the advice and take the good bits and pieces of it, and then, like, move on. But don't realize that part of like thinking critically is realizing that, like, there's trade-offs to everything that you do. And like, it doesn't matter what you're trying to do, whether it's scale a YouTube channel, build a podcast, build a software company, build an agency, do freaking ecommerce or something, or be like Jay Carles and build a snack bar brand. It doesn't matter what you're doing. In the beginning, there's always gonna be people that are like, oh, wait, like, why aren't you doing this other thing? Like that is, there's pros and cons to every business model. So naturally, like, I think you're gonna get a variety of different opinions. And it's, it's totally normal, but maybe I'm just super, super stubborn. I, it takes a lot for me to like change course once I've started something, especially once I've like put my mind to something and especially if I want to see it through. So by the time I'd, you know, invested like three or four months into Forge, you know, we've built up enough momentum to the point where now it's, it's really difficult. And I'll be honest, I'm, I'm pretty stubborn as well, even like to this day. You know, there are people, like, I was getting off a call last week with someone and they're, they're telling me there's this huge, this much bigger opportunity that, that I could be taking advantage of rather than just ghostwriting for people. Everything that they were saying was logical and made a lot of sense. Like, yes, the market is much bigger for this other thing compared to ghostwriting. And yes, you know, the scalability is way higher when it's a software company rather than a service company. And I don't disagree with any of that, but I just, I don't know what it is. I'm just, I'm just really, really stubborn when it comes to these things. But all that to say, I think it's important to believe in yourself in the beginning. It sounds cheesy and like cringe, but dude, if you're not gonna believe in your idea, then you really shouldn't be doing it because like nobody owes it to you to believe in it, especially in the beginning. So with this podcast, for example, that Daniel and I are doing, nobody believes in it, especially in the early days. I think we were lucky that we had some people that were kind of on board from the like the first month. And now we put out like 20 something, 30 something episodes, and there's more people that are behind it. But in the beginning, I mean, Daniel, you could probably also agree with me on this. Most people just probably thought we were, we were crazy. Matt: Most people didn't think we would get past five episodes. That's true. And I think an important thing though, is also realizing like what your success metrics are, because like if you don't define your own success metrics, somebody else is going to like prescribe them to you. So, for example, for me, the success metric for Forge is, one, do I not quit within like the first year? And then two, like, am I able to consistently, maybe it's like get like new clients every single month. That could be a success metric. Or can I consistently put out good content and deliver results for my clients? Not necessarily, you know, like how, how much money we're making off of the, the business or factors that are less controllable. Similarly with the podcast, our success metric, I think is again, like, are we consistently putting out content? Are we like raising the bar with the quality of guests that we put on and also the production quality? And less so the actual subscriber growth, because that's something that's a little bit less in our control. And something that I've realized over time is, if you just focus on like the one or two things that really matters, then the growth is a byproduct of that. So in my case, for Forge, the one or two things that really matters to me is doing a really good job for clients to the point where like our retention is super high and clients want to refer us to other clients. And then two is, you know, figuring out a way to actually scale the business effectively. So that's thinking of like systems and also how to find good talent. But with the podcast, for us, it could be like just getting really good guests and making sure that the conversations that we're having with them are really high quality and drawing out the insights that we can then write about in our LinkedIn accounts. So if you can focus on those one or two things, I think the rest of it is just noise, honestly. Daniel: I think that's a common theme of your story, Matt. It's locking in and trying something for a year, whether it's investment banking, whether it's consulting, whether it's now Forge and this podcast, or whether even if it was video games and playing a sport in high school, you consistently locked in on something for a year. And that taught you a lot. Like, even with college at Emory, too. It's, there's no downside to giving it your all and trying something for a year because you're going to learn something that will change the rest of your life either way. I mean, I've really enjoyed listening to your story. It's really inspiring to me. I admire your work ethic and I'm sure the audience does too. Matt: Likewise. I mean, I mean, Daniel, your, your, your work ethic is also extremely impressive. And the last thing I'll say is like, I agree with you. I think sticking to something for a year is a really useful and valuable habit to get into. Most people, they don't stick with new things for more than a like a couple months. So, you know, I mean, there's some statistic. Daniel: I think it's like only nine percent of people ever actually like follow through with their new year's resolutions. We're recording this on December 30th and I think by the time this goes out, it'll be like in January. But every year people make new year's resolutions and every year people make goals, but very few actually stick with it for the amount of time that I believe is required to actually see real results. And so, yeah, with the YouTube, the first year, you know, that was my only goal was just like, let's just keep doing this. Let's just stay consistent. You know, it was hard. It was a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that, that doubted it and a lot of like comments being made behind the back, things like that. And at many points I, I wanted to quit. I wanted to just stop. But something that is really, I think really important to me is just doing the things that I, I say that I'm going to do. So it's so simple, but it's very difficult. So if you tell yourself you're going to like do it for six months, then like you really should, because if you don't, you're almost like disrespecting yourself in a way. But yeah, not to get off topic here, I think, yeah, I'm glad that, you know, you resonate with it, Daniel, and I respect your, your work ethic as well. You're an absolute LinkedIn machine over here, writing like a month's worth of content in a, in a weekend. Matt: Well, thank you. And I think we got to close it out with hearing some of your hobbies now, Matt. I know I've been trying to get you into running. How, how's that going? And what else are you doing for fun these days? Daniel: Yeah, I've been doing more running and it's probably due to your influence, but let's go. You know, the, yeah, I really like working out. I usually start my workouts now with like a running on the treadmill and then I'll transition over to like the weights and like a little bit of calisthenics stuff as well. But yeah, I believe that, you know, taking care of the body and the mind is like super important if you want to be performing at your best. I would say for fun, posting on LinkedIn, recording these podcasts is, is a lot of fun with you, Daniel. When I'm not working, working, I would say I do enjoy, I do, I do enjoy reading as well. I like reading a lot of different things, but recently I've been really into like David Senra's biographies and David Senra's the, runs the Founders podcast for the audience. But I think it's really interesting to learn about the, the lives of other entrepreneurs and just like interesting people. And it's fascinating to see what they were like when they were earlier, kind of like around our age before they became quote unquote like famous. Matt: Have you listened to the James Dyson one? Daniel: I haven't. I'll have to check that one out. Matt: Oh my gosh. You have to listen to that one. That one's so good. He might even do James Dyson every hundred. He's, he's awesome. I like that one and Michael Dell too. Matt: Those two were, oh, and raising, have you heard of Chicken Finger Dream? Daniel: No, I haven't. That raising. Matt: Okay. Yes. You need to hear Chicken Finger Dream and then you need to go James Dyson. And then um I forgot the third one, but fortunately when I'm re-editing this, I'm, I'm going to text you the third one. Daniel: Solid. That's what, that's going to be my required uh required listening for the week ahead. Is there anything else, Matt, we didn't hit on about your story that we should have hit on? Matt: Something that's really important for me and that maybe listeners would also benefit from is like the thing I said earlier about defining your own success metrics is super important because if you don't think very intentionally about why you're doing what you're doing, the moment that it gets really difficult and when you're like just eating glass, uh, because you will if you're doing anything entrepreneurial at some point, it's not going to be all highs. Like it's gonna be very difficult to continue if you don't really think hard about why you're actually doing it and what your success metrics are. So for me, you know, for example, what I was saying earlier about Forge, my success metric is not actually like how much money we're making. And I think I have a target in my mind of, oh, this is like where I want to be by the end of 2026. Yes, but more importantly to me is the fact that I don't quit and how do I don't quit. And how do I not quit? Well, it, it requires me to really have fun doing the thing that I'm doing and find enjoyment out of it. Even if it's like the little things, right? Like the other day I was, dude, I was setting up like accounting software and that's like so boring, but for some reason it was really interesting to me because I was like, Wow, I've never had to do this before. And you know, like I got to like, and now I need to like hire an accountant probably come like tax season. There's a lot of different small little things that happen on the day to day, even just like hopping on a call with a client and like brainstorming some new strategy for their content or even for their own, their own business. Like those are the really interesting moments that keep me going even when the day to day is, is a grind. So I would say figure out like what your success metrics are and ideally they're things that like you have a little bit more control over and just focus on that. Like with the YouTube channel, there were so many instances where I wanted to quit, but the thing that kept me going was again, my success metric is, do I help, is this video going to help at least one person out there solve some sort of problem or alleviate some sort of like pain point that they're having? If the answer is yes, then hit post because like nine times out of ten, you're not going to feel like the content or the thing that you're shipping is good enough. Daniel: But as long as that success criteria is met, then 100%, like just do Trying to grow your own audience or, you know, build a business, then you're just going to be able to go a lot longer than most people that are just measuring success by external metrics that they really don't have too much control over, like, you know, views, like follows, like even revenue, things like that. But that's all I got. Hopefully this was helpful. This is a massive rant of an episode, but thanks for, you know, if you're listening now, like, thanks for sticking around. Drop a comment so we know that you made it this far. And yeah, stay tuned for more. Yeah, I think we just made history, Matt, with the longest connection accepted episode. So thanks again to the audience for making it this far. And maybe we'll do another deep dive on my life later. 100%.