I asked a $100M founder for LinkedIn advice | #21

Transcription

Matt: Give your product is free money and nobody wants to accept it. I'm doing something wrong. There's nobody anybody hates more in this world. I get these DMs like, I just like to pick your brain. And I'm like, for what? Like, I don't know. But if it's a podcast, you're like, all right, sure. I'm a LinkedIn top voice. Like actually, that, that box over there, that giant brown box, that's from LinkedIn. They sent me the things you would send a creator. There's like cameras and headphones and things. Daniel: I used to work at Instagram. I helped build out Instagram Live. I worked with a lot of different creators there and I saw firsthand, wow, there are businesses. They're making millions of dollars, they have millions of followers, but they have no idea how to handle the business financial side of what they do. They're not incorporated. They haven't paid their taxes. They can't even get a mortgage. Sometimes they can't even get a credit card because they don't have credit history. And I was like, well, this is something I can help them with. And before working at Instagram, I used to work in investment banking, so I had contacts in the financial side and I also helped build out some very early financial products during my time in consulting, like Zelle. So I realized there is an opportunity here to build square for the creator ecosystem. Tell us a little bit about how did you meet your co-founder? Where did that start? You were at Instagram at the time. Daniel: Yeah, so I think the most important thing, clearly we had the mission, which is, hey, we want to help creators with their finances. We want to build products for them today. We do business credit, business banking, taxes. But I actually think more important than the mission is who you do it with. Because so many things when you're doing a startup can pivot and change around, but your teammate, your co-founder should be there throughout all of it. And you have to find somebody who is at a similar life stage as you, that they want to take on a risk and do something new, who you genuinely get along with, but also complements you and hence is different with a different skill set. The combination of all those three, it's almost like finding a unicorn. And frankly, it's not like dating. I think that if you go out with a specific purpose of like, let me find my co-founder, it's going to be really hard and frustrating because you'll constantly be like, why haven't I found them yet? You almost have to put yourself into a mindset of deliberate abundance, where you're like, you know what, I'm going to find them. I'm just going to go out and just meet lots of people and do lots of interesting things. So to me, my co-founder, I had made the jump from finance and consulting into tech. I knew that I wanted to build products. This was even before I knew I wanted to do Carrot specifically. Daniel: And I figured finding a co-founder in Silicon Valley would be way better, but instead of going to like 5,000 networking events where frankly, you just meet tons of other try-hards who may or may not be a good fit. And it works for some people, but it's just not my vibe. I actually met him at board games and engineer on my team. I was a product manager at Facebook and Instagram and engineer on my team invited me to board games. And this is a great case where it's really easy to just be like, no, I'm tired. I have a job. I'm locked in on finding my co-founder. I don't have the mental energy. And I said, yes, because I knew the best things in life you don't expect. And so I went to board games and my future co-founder was hosting it. And we just like really hit it off. We just talked about, hey, like, what do you want to do in life? I was working corporate. He was about to start a VC fund. And I think it started a friendship that we knew each other as good friends for over three years before we ever thought about doing something together. Matt: Was it instant as soon as you guys met at board games again? I don't think so. I mean, he's just a dude. I'm just a dude, right? I think like, that's one thing that's different than like dating and dating. They say like, oh, the chemistry was palpable. Like I looked at her and she looked at me. Music played and doves sang. We knew this was it. Daniel: I think it was just like, oh, this seems like a cool guy, right? I do think we had a good initial conversation. One of the things we talked about, Ari, what do you want to do with life? He told me that he was quitting his master's program at Stanford to study in computer science. And he was choosing between continuing a venture capital fund he had started, which I was like, wow, that's really impressive as a 23-year-old, or running off to the woods, pulling Henry David Thoreau, and becoming a pod full-time. And I was like, that's even cooler. This isn't just a dude who just wants to like make money. This is a guy who knows there are other things in life that potentially are worth more and is creative and wants to do the arts. And somebody like myself, who's grown up with this expectation that you just find a job and make lots of money, that really appealed to me. That drew me in. Matt: I love that you brought that up, Eric, because, and you know, we were talking about this off the record, of course, like, especially, you know, growing up, if you're Asian. On the record now, hey. On the record now with Asian parents, like there's this certain mindset that kind of gets drilled into you and a certain path that you feel pressured to follow. Daniel: Yeah, it's a scarcity mentality. Like, God, we could all like die tomorrow and live in poverty, so get the stable job. Matt: Yeah, 100%. Daniel: And it seems like your co-founder, you know, kind of had like a little bit of a refreshing perspective because he wasn't just interested in saying, like, let's just build the biggest company possible and make as much money. But hey, he had additional layers of depth to his personality. Yeah, I mean, I think even to consider the arts, you have to be a little bit in an abundance mentality, right? You can't necessarily be like, let me go like make pottery or do something creative. It's like, oh, God, like I'm not gonna be living tomorrow. And so it was cool to see a guy who's grown up with a similar background as myself, who, yeah, it was like locked in on let me like build a good career, but also was like, oh, there's a career side of myself I haven't got to express. And I think it's because I never got to express that for myself. It really intrigued me. Matt: Fascinating. So you guys, you hit it off. You start Carrot. Tell us about like the early days. Like what was that like when you were initially trying to get? Daniel: I mean, all we knew was we wanted to work with creators and we want to help them with their finances. We didn't really know anything beyond that. And so the very first product we tried, we were like, well, this is Kylie Jenner, right? Peak era, right? 2018, 2019. Like, gosh, a lot of creators, well, they could be spinning up more products as well because they've built in distribution. We've since learned, yes and no. Matt: Yes, there have been many creators who've launched their own products that have been very well. Take Prime as an example, right? From KSI and Logan Paul. When you have the distribution and there's good fit between your audience and the product, boom, easy. And the no is, well, you also have to be able to build a brand that exists outside of just you, right? We've also seen with Prime, sales actually dropped the next few years because they were very reliant upon the novelty and the creators continuing to promote it. Whereas there are companies, like, you know, if we look at traditional Hollywood, The Honest Company, Jessica Alba, who was the invisible woman in the second Fantastic Four series that came out after the very initial one. And for her, well, you know, no one necessarily knows The Honest Company is Jessica Alba. She used her celebrity to boost the brand, but didn't necessarily have to stick around. So she was able to build, I would say, a generational wealth legacy type company. And so we were like, well, let's help creators do this. Let's give them funding. Let's give them capital at better rates to launch their own products and companies better than normal bank would or normal investor would because we actually understand what they do. And the main problem with that, we ran into adverse selection. It's infamously quoted by Groucho Marx, I wouldn't want to be a part of any club that would have me. Daniel: Unfortunately, when nobody knows who you are and trusts you, and you're just offering money, the people who want to take the money are not the ones you want to take the money. For instance, some person in a fucking trench coat came to you off the street and was like, hey man, sign here and I'll give you like a thousand dollars. You'd be like, absolutely not because you seem, both of you, to be well-adjusted, smart people. You're like, I don't wanna like sign away whatever terms are going on. So when you're initially providing capital, that's what we ran into. We literally went around in 2020 to creators and the government was doing PPP, which if you don't remember, were loans for COVID stimulus that would be forgiven. Actually free money. Businesses got millions of dollars from the government in this. And we couldn't get a single creator to take it. Like if your product is free money and nobody wants to accept it, you're like, oh, I'm doing something wrong. And it's because they didn't know us. They didn't trust us. They didn't have the financial education and comfort to even be aware this was a thing. So the first big realization we had was it doesn't matter if you build the best financial product in the world that underwrites them better than anybody else and gives them better terms. It doesn't matter if they don't even know that they need you. Matt: That's fascinating because it's almost, it's similar in a way to the creator model where you're using creatives and your distribution as a moat to someone else to come in and take your market share, right? Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I would frame it as you always have to build trust and awareness first. That's what creators do really well. And as a new player in the financial technology market, like why have banks existed for as long as they have, even though, like, what do they do for you? Not really clear. Most of us are using the exact same bank account. Their parents set us up when we were like 12 years old. And I ask people all the time, what has your bank done for you lately? And the answer is, I don't know, nothing. Why are they winning? Because they exist. Because it takes so long to build trust where you're like, well, I've heard of XYZ bank, let me just stay on them. So if you want to build a new financial product, and this is something everybody had to figure out, Robinhood, Venmo, PayPal, the very first thing you need to do is build trust. I still remember Robinhood came out, people were like, commission-free trading? Like, this is a scam, this can't be real. Like, Merrill Lynch charges me this much. Charles Schwab charges me this much. How can you charge nothing? Of course, Robinhood, we know, is selling the orders to other financial institutions who needed the liquidity and trading volume. They were making money. Daniel: But the point is, yes, like a creator, you actually have to build that awareness. So what do we do? We did two things. The first thing was we pivoted the product. We basically went around to creators and said, what's a product they understand right off the bat that they have a problem that is a hair on fire need? And that product was a business credit card. It seems really basic and obvious. Everybody can get a credit card. No. There are huge creators who we're working with, like Alex Botes, a chess streamer, went to Stanford, started a YC-backed company, making very healthy income as a chess streamer, is a chess grandmaster, was rejected for a business credit card multiple times. And when you can't get access to credit for your business, everything sucks because you don't have purchase protection. You don't get any float, right? You're like spending money on your own personal cards or whatever. And so that was the first product, which for a relatively small portion of creators, was actually their top need. The second thing was, okay, you need to build trust from a marketing POV too. And once we had a few clients on the credit card, we did collabs with them. We'd be like, hey, is it okay if we post you on our Instagram and feature you as a client, give you a spotlight, make you look really cool? And they'd be like, yeah. So we'd do that. And eventually other creators would see it. And we'd be like, oh yeah, we work with Alex Botes. And they'd be like, hmm. Daniel: They'd message her and be like, is this real? She'd be like, yeah, it is. They'd be like, cool, I'm interested as well. And so that's how we built the initial trust from, wow, nobody will literally take free money to, we've launched this business credit card, and now people are actually using this. Now our goal is to go way beyond the business credit card. Our number one focus right now is business banking. We do business banking for creators. We do it better than anybody else out there. And we've been able to go into that because people know us for the business credit card, because a bank account normally requires a lot of trust. So you kind of ladder up to that. Matt: Got it. So you kind of started with the credit card, which is something that's like easy to understand for creators, something that they actually needed. And then now you're sort of like expanding that. Daniel: Yeah, I mean, like it is the most concrete encapsulation of a very abstract product, which is money, float, debt. Like, what does that mean? I give you money, you give it to me back later. Okay, like that's not something I can understand and hold in my hand unless it's a credit card. Matt: Yeah. And so was that kind of the genesis of the, like the awareness piece, the genesis of the podcast that you've been running where you have different creators come on and talk? Daniel: Podcast was actually very much like, hey, we work with so many amazing creators. Daniel: It is really strong business development and customer research to get to know them better, right? It's strong business development because I can understand them. Think of it almost like an hour long session with a potential client of yours, like a marquee big deal client. And if you just went up to them and said, hey, do you just have like an hour just like shoot the shit? Like, you know, I love just to pick your brain. There's nobody anybody hates more in this world. And I get these DMs. It's like, I just like to pick your brain. And I'm like, motherfucker, for what? Like, I don't know. And so nobody wants to do that. But if it's a podcast, you're like, all right, sure. We'll get something out of it. So the first thing is like business development. You get to bring them on and learn more about their lives, their problems, what you potentially can help them with, right? And the second piece is, yeah, it's really good marketing too. For example, both of you saw and mentioned like, oh, I did a podcast recently with Alex Hormozy. Alex is a killer. I love that man. I learn so much every time I'm with him. And if you see that podcast, you immediately implicitly realize, wow, Eric can't be a complete fucking dummy because if he were, why the heck would Alex agree to do a podcast with him, right? And so there's absolutely a level of brand building and credibility too that comes from doing the podcast. Daniel: But in the beginning, right? You can't be thinking about these things because you just have to start. And in the beginning, nobody watches you. You have no followers. You have no views. So you're really just reliant on people you know already. And you say, hey, come on, let's do something. The very first podcast I ever did was with a creator called Nas Daily. And it's because I was friends with him in college. Like we worked out together, right? We got lunch and dinner together. And the two of us, for whatever reason, ended up in the same creator industry. And that first podcast you go and watch, we don't really talk about the creator industry. We actually play, you know, 30 questions to fall in love, which is like a very personal intimate exploration of like random questions. And we posted some clips about that, which ironically weren't about creator finances at all. They were about attachment styles and they got like over 5 million views on TikTok. And that was enough to be like, oh, there's like something here. Now, obviously as time's gone on, we've like pivoted and evolved the style a lot. I don't really do that format of questions anymore. Like now it is, you know, I just film. and put podcasts out with Cody Sanchez, and yes, Hormozi. Those are both very business-focused pods. So, you know, I guess the takeaway is whatever you start with is whatever just gets you to start posting. It can evolve over time as the audience grows with you. Matt: How does LinkedIn and other platforms like make up your strategy of marketing at Carrot? Daniel: Yeah, I think there's two or three things that LinkedIn is helpful for. The first is obviously potential clients. Now, in a perfect world, your clients are literally on LinkedIn. And you've seen a lot of SaaS companies, like the founder of Pylon, Marty, I believe, right? He posts so much on LinkedIn and it's brilliant because guess what? All his customers are other startups. They are also on LinkedIn. Matt: And I am not even that familiar with what Pylon does. I think they're like Zendesk, but better. Daniel: I'm honestly not even that familiar either. Let me Google this really quickly. But I think this is a fantastic point where, like, we're not even sure what Pylon does. And we have heard of Pylon. Matt: Right, we've heard the name. We know they exist. Daniel: Yeah, actually, I'm completely right. It's a Zendesk killer. Yeah, that is literally what it is. And it's because Marty posts on LinkedIn and his customers are people like us. So that's like reason number one. For us, it's not as true because most creators are not on LinkedIn. Reason number two is finding potential partners, which is relevant for us. Even though our creator clients may not be on LinkedIn, a lot of their partners, like business managers, agents, merchandisers, people who help creators syndicate out their content, they're on LinkedIn. And they see my content. Daniel: And what do I post? I mean, obviously, I post about Carrot, but I also post a lot of just thoughts about the creator economy. And so it builds a brand with potential business partners, like, oh, this guy knows what he's talking about, right? And I'd say the third and final reason is it's just fun, right? Like, I've been in the creator economy, not that long, but like over 5, 6, 7 years now. And I do have a lot of thoughts. And often, I think these thoughts are advantageous to what I'm doing for Carrot's business. But sometimes, they're just thoughts. Turns out other people like to hear these thoughts. And it's like very personally gratifying to be like, oh, like, I posted about clipping, like, before it blew up, right? Like, now the Wall Street Journal's covered clipping. If the Wall Street Journal covers you, you're so mainstream, right? That, like, everybody knows about it. There's like 5,000 clipping startups, like all the big Hollywood agencies are doing it. I posted about it relatively early. And that post, I think, got over 100,000 impressions. And I was like, see, that's a great case of, I'm deep in it. Let me reframe this in a way that people outside the industry understand what this is, which I personally feel very gratified for. And like I said, it feeds into, wow, it really builds Eric's business credibility so that partners want to work with me. Like, actually, that box over there, that giant brown box, that's from LinkedIn. Daniel: Like, they sent me the things you would send a creator. There's like cameras and headphones and things in there because by posting about the creator economy, yes, like, it actually established my brand as a creator, which is also good. Matt: And then I guess I should emphasize, for every three posts I post about random thoughts, I'll make a post about Carrot, and that does lead to clients. Daniel: That's interesting. So you kind of have like a three-to-one ratio of actually talking about Carrot. Matt: Yeah, I mean, you can't just, like, post about your company like Ad Infinitum. Like, it gets boring, right? Also, if you're just, like, waxing and waning about the creator economy all day, like, bro, like, why are you doing this? Like, what's the point? Like, don't you have a job? Daniel: And so for me, like, I used to post, like, every day, actually, for like a couple of years to build that credibility. And, like, I don't. And now I post once, like, every four months because to my earlier point, I have the credibility now when I post about Carrot. Like, oh, check out Carrot business banking. People do see it. People do respond. And, like, I don't have the spare time to be like, LinkedIn post time, whatever. Matt: Now, that's really different. There are, like, LinkedIn creators, right? Or people, as I said before, whose customers are on LinkedIn. Then I think it totally makes sense to post all the time. It's just for myself, not as much. Daniel: Do you see more of the creators you're doing podcasts with or working with starting to post more on LinkedIn, whether it be Nick DiGiovanni or other mainstream creators that might be bigger on YouTube? Matt: I would say marginally. Some creators who are worried that brands are on LinkedIn. So you want to get more brand deals, you should post on LinkedIn. Or they'll have someone do it for them. There's a TikTok creator that I know everybody knows. And, like, she's not posting on LinkedIn. That's her manager, right? But it still works because she gets brands. Daniel: I would say, though, instead of, like, established creators on other platforms posting more on LinkedIn, what we're seeing more is just, like, LinkedIn native creators, right? These are people who figure out from day one, LinkedIn is really great content marketing and it leads directly into my funnel. And so they, like, LinkedIn is just their main platform. I've interviewed a couple of them. Lorraine Kay Lee is, or Gene Kang. These are creators who came from corporate and have built amazing audiences and content on LinkedIn. That is actually their main platform. And it monetizes for them really well because they start from a place of professional credibility. Here's what I can teach you about, right? In a way that feels very trusted and friendly. So I would say I'd see less of, like, oh my God. This creator is huge on YouTube. Like they should definitely post on LinkedIn. Matt: And more like, there's just creators who are starting from LinkedIn from the very beginning. And it's a very natural transition point for people who are coming from corporate careers, like all of us have. What social media platform are you spending the most time on? Daniel: Instagram, because it's important for my clients and my business. Like I just said, most of my creator clients are not on LinkedIn. They are on YouTube. They are on Instagram. They're on TikTok. But most of the social media platforms lack a strong messaging community basis because of how they started. YouTube started for broadcasting, right? TikTok started with the algorithm. Instagram started as a social network. Even despite all the things it's evolved and done since, DMs are still a really big part of what they do. So whenever I post on Instagram, I'm also potentially having people reach out to me or building the credibility so I can reach out to them. So I by far spend the most time on Instagram. Before Carrot, before doing this company, I was private on Instagram. I had like a hundred followers, right? And I realized a couple of years ago, well, that's just really dumb. I'm missing out on potential business leads for my company. And I just started posting and doing stuff publicly. Matt: Do you frequently get like leads from partners or brands through LinkedIn? I would say that oftentimes people will reach out to me with interesting business ideas and potential opportunities to work together, which aren't necessarily how I was going to be like, here's a creator client, but like, here's a great example. Our chief of staff is a killer. She started at McKinsey. She's worked at startups. She's made content herself and is so savvy and has done great work here at Carrot. She reached out to me on LinkedIn. It was just a cold DM, which she was like, Hey, I watch your podcast. I like them. I saw you posted on LinkedIn about like hiring a chief of staff. Like, let's chat. And I saw that. I was like, yeah, absolutely. So I think that like, there are always, I always check my LinkedIn DMs. Like you never know what can come up, right? It's actually a little bit. You guys reach out to me through email, but if I'm being honest, that's like, we got very lucky there because I usually don't check my email. LinkedIn. I actually will check myself, right? I'm an assistant go through my email. I will look at LinkedIn. So I do think it's good. But like in terms of like, Oh, here's a creator that should work with you. It doesn't happen as much on LinkedIn because like creators just really aren't on LinkedIn as much. Note to self, we should start with the LinkedIn DM. Oh yeah. If you reach out to me with LinkedIn, that probably would improve your odds like 5X. Matt: Like I almost didn't even see your email. Yeah. And like your header was good though. I was like, Oh, I just clicked on it. I was like, Oh, that seems cool. Daniel: Sure. Yeah. The on the topic of LinkedIn DMs, have you ever actively reached out to brands or partners or something? I mean, we we've brought in creator clients because of it. I mean, to my earlier point that like emails like who knows, but LinkedIn is still often more personal. So one of our creator clients who became an investor in us is named Marina Makoko. She started off doing content around learning languages, but has since expanded to do podcasts herself and talk about Silicon Valley. So I initially emailed her being like, Hey, we'd love to work with you, heard about you from a few friends. And I got an email back saying we're not interested. And it turned out it was like her assistant managing the email box. They were like, we don't care. I also reached out to her on LinkedIn because I was like, Hmm, this doesn't feel like Marina. I feel like she would be interested. And on LinkedIn, it was actually Marina. She responded. She's like, Yeah, absolutely. And we built a amazing, great relationship now. And the only difference was I was actually able to reach out to her directly past her team. And that was because of LinkedIn. And that was a cold DM or another good example. One of my very good friends, Chloe she, who I also do another podcast with, that was all LinkedIn. Matt: We had like vaguely known of each other, but she kept popping up on my feed. And I just DM'd her on LinkedIn one day. I was like, Hey, you seem really cool. Let's get coffee sometime. She said, yes, absolutely. And then I didn't respond. I left her unread. So I was just busy and I forgot, but it started something. And then she saw me later at an LA creator event. She came up to me and she said, Do you remember who I am? I said, Oh, darn. I didn't, but we became great friends off of that. Daniel: So LinkedIn, great for outbound, great for getting to know people. You never know. And now Chloe literally interviewed the CEO of LinkedIn a few weeks ago. Oh yeah. Chloe's killing it. Yeah. I've known her now for years. Matt: Yeah. And all started from a LinkedIn DM. Damn. Same, same with Matt and us. Daniel: Yeah. Cause people actually check their LinkedIn. Yeah. And it's got a hundred percent deliverability rate. I mean, with email, it can go to spam, all this other stuff. Matt: Oh, that's true. With email. Like you don't know where the heck it's going to end up. Daniel: Yeah. It's also like so much easier for someone to just like see your message, check your profile versus email. Matt: Yeah. It's like instant credibility. Like someone DMs you on Instagram. If they're a creator, you can check and be like, Okay, what content do they make? What do you follow? But like any other industry, it's not like their Instagrams don't have anything. Daniel: Whereas LinkedIn, to your point, you'd be like, Okay, this is like a real person and it's worth somebody, somebody worth getting to know. I want to rewind back to when you were posting every day on LinkedIn for two years. What was, what was that like? Matt: Well, what were your goals posting? Oh, honestly, it's like pretty insane. This goes back to what I said when I started the podcast, like in the beginning, you just need to frame it in your mind however and whatever just gets you to actually post, because in the beginning you're not going to get any of the views and followers. So for me, I was just like, Oh, I feel like I see all these people on LinkedIn in posting things about the creator economy, they're just like wrong. It really bothered me. I was like, half the people posting here have never actually worked with creators and they're just saying like nonsense. They're like, other people outside the creator economy are just like liking and reinforcing and approving because they don't know. And there are like so many real OGs in the creator economy, which now do post on LinkedIn, but at the time, like, they weren't because it was very new. And so I was like, well, like, people are posting this and like, this doesn't seem right. Oh, but like, if I post, like, it's going to be like a whole thing. Like, I don't know. And so the first post I ever made on LinkedIn actually is part of this like creator training, which started posting every day for a couple of years. Daniel: It was from a friend of a friend. She had started as a product manager at Facebook and she also made content. And she had been blowing for content and people were criticizing her because they were like, wow, like how do you do your job as a product manager? And I was like, I want to defend her because it's like, people don't realize, just as all of us have done and what you two are doing now, you can absolutely work a corporate job and create content on the side. Like, build a following. Why not? And it's, in fact, becoming relevant for your business that people know who you are, whatever business you're in. So for me, when I see this product manager posting content on the side, I'm like, that's great. Like, that's not a bad thing. We should encourage that. And I saw so many people jumping in, like shitting on her. So I just made a post just defending her. And it did really well and she found it and she reached out to me. She like thanked me and I was like, this is really cool. I was like, you know what? I do have perspectives. I think add value to the creator economy. And like, when I do something, I like to do it properly. I used to post the podcast every week for like a couple of years. And so similar, I was like, screw it. Like, it didn't take me that long to write. You know, people, to be clear, I think there are people who like optimize their LinkedIn posts like way more than I do. My LinkedIn posts are like not optimized. Daniel: I just sit there for 15 minutes and I'm just like, hmm, like what's something interesting? Let me just like write it out and maybe I'll like spend another 15 minutes like looking over it. So I kind of was like, well, I have thoughts. Let me just write more of those thoughts. And I stopped doing it because to my earlier point, I built enough credibility that like the incremental credibility just like wasn't that much. And like it was getting to the point where like, many of my thoughts are like floating around. I'm like, do I have like more thoughts to add? Do I like have a new novel thought every single day now after posting like 700 times in a row? And I was like, yes, but I have to like work for it. And then I'm like, well, like I'm not trying to be a LinkedIn creator. I'm using LinkedIn as content to grow my business. So what if I just didn't post every single day and it was fine. Eric, do you comment at all on LinkedIn? Matt: Sometimes. I mean, LinkedIn's algorithm is still relatively simple. If like someone goes and likes and comments, like literally all their followers see it. Like I always joke with Chloe, one of my best performing posts ever. It has like over like 200,000 impressions. I did a podcast with Chloe and I post about it on LinkedIn and she literally, like, I think she just like liked it or like maybe she just commented. She's like, thanks. That was it. But then it went out to all her followers and it like blew up. Daniel: So when I comment, I'm very aware that like all my followers are going to see it. So unlike like Instagram where I just comment like whatever, ha ha, on LinkedIn, I am very aware, like people will see this. My followers will see this. And so there's a much higher bar. Either there's something I'm like, Oh, this is really interesting. Or much more likely, it's somebody I have a relationship with and I want to support them. Like these days, there are a lot of people who message me and just be like, Hey, can you like this and comment this? And like, I'll do it if I have a good relationship with them because I know it helps. But it's much better when it's like, Well, no, organically, I really like you. I support what you're doing. I want to do this. I want to go and be like, Hey, yeah, good job because I know that'll absolutely make other people see it. And again, there are full-time creators on LinkedIn, like Justin Welsh, who are so good at this and they figured out how to use comments to grow. They know if they go to a popular creator and they comment, they help that creator, but it also helps them because they get visibility too. I'm a little different because I'm not really a full-time LinkedIn creator. I'm somebody who makes content as part of my workflow of my own company. So it's a little bit not quite the same. Do you post much at all on Carrot's account or think about that? Matt: Oh, no. Personal always does better than brands. Daniel: Like to have a face, it's obviously gonna do better than like some logo. So I'll usually post on my own account and I'll just reshare it with Carrot. And like you go click on my profile, it's like Carrot all over the place, right? Like literally like my banner photo is Carrot. My title is like co-founder of Carrot. Like you're communicating with me, you know it's about Carrot. All of our previous guests have said the same thing. You might as well not post on a company page. Matt: I mean, I don't have usually like post at all, but if you're going to post, absolutely do it as like an actual human being. Like especially in the age of like AI slop, like the more people feel like you actually did this, the better. And like, yeah, do I use AI to like review my posts? Yeah, often, but I'm still the one sitting down and like writing the first draft and coming up with the ideas. And I think, you know, these days that's a rarity. That's also probably why I don't post as much. Daniel: So like, again, if you want to be like LinkedIn expert master creator, probably don't follow my advice. Matt: No, but it's worked. You're, you're a top voice. When, do you remember when, when you got that? I think it's a couple of years ago and I was good friends with the LinkedIn creator manager. And I was interested. I was like, oh, you know, I've seen a lot. Matt: A lot of people get this, like, how do I do it? And the main piece of view he gave me was like, you can't just promote your company because I was doing a lot of carrot posts. And he's like, you have to like add value beyond just promoting your company. And that's why I started having hot takes on the creator economy, actually, sort of like, initially, it was like finding a piece of news, like, resharing like a photo of it and be like, this is my take on it. And then eventually, I was like, I don't even need the news article. I just started making my own graphics. So I just like go into keynote and like throw a photo, throw a headline, make basically my own like newspaper image and just paste it and react to my own thing. I do the same thing in Figma with all my posts. Yeah. Daniel: It's like I need like an image and like I can't find a good article, so I'll make my own. Add a little gradient on the image as well. Oh, that's way more advanced than I do. I just like paste title. Boom. Good. So there's like an actual team at LinkedIn. That specific job is like, hey, let's find creators to give top voice badges to. Is that? Matt: Oh, I don't think that's their job. I think their job is LinkedIn knows it's important to cultivate creators. And they're thinking through how do we support creators? How do we take their feedback back to the team? And as part of it, I think they're also figuring out like who should be a top voice because that is actually editorially driven. Daniel: For a while, LinkedIn has other feature. They would give you like a like top voice in a specific industry and it wasn't editorially driven. You just had to respond to like 5,000 community posts in a certain topic and you just get it automatically. And it's a different one, to be clear. But LinkedIn stopped doing that because LinkedIn realized it actually diluted the credibility of the real top voice badge when there's one you could earn by just answering like 5,000 Yahoo answers, right? Because people would be like, oh, well, like this person has a top voice badge. I should listen to them. And it's like, well, they got it, not because necessarily they have expertise, but because they're just willing to put the time in and answer like 5,000 questions on whatever, right? Like how do I get a job, right? And so I actually think it's the right way to do it is as you're doing now, which is like editorially, which is like, like, hey, you're adding something of worth to the ecosystem. Obviously that scales will probably eventually have to change, right? Like YouTube gives you the plaque if you're over a hundred thousand. It's not like Mr. YouTube being like, hmm, but I think in the beginning, you absolutely should do it based off merit and editorially driven what we think makes sense. And then over time, they'll probably have to scale it out. Matt: Did LinkedIn give you a plaque for the top voice? They didn't give me a plaque, but again, I'll show you guys after they sent me like a giant box of so many cool goodies. And yeah, I love the LinkedIn creator team. They're very supportive. Sometimes they'll like, even for a while, I would do this. They like feature me in top news. Be like, hey, here's like a hot topic that's like trending. If you want to write about it, we might highlight you as top news. I'd be like, yeah, I'm on. And I do it. But as I said, I just am busier these days and I'm tired. And so I just haven't done as much, but it's a great feature. Daniel: Do you want to... Matt: No, no, no. Okay. I'll go for it. I mean, we can just cut it out later. Um, no, no. Well, we have a little something for you later. Daniel: Okay. Sounds good. I love little somethings. Eric, so you have a lot of great ideas and thoughts. If you were able to talk to the LinkedIn CEO today, is there anything that where you'd be like, can you please change this or can you please add this to the platform as is? Matt: I think for me, I would love more IRL LinkedIn creator meetups. The best part of getting to work with creators you care is meeting them and building real relationships. It's why I do podcasts. It's why I host so many events. It's why I go to so many conferences. And I love meeting LinkedIn creators like Lorraine and Gene and Chloe and so many more, but I haven't done so as much through LinkedIn official events. Daniel: I think they've done an incredible job building the platform and the program. And if they did more meetups, that'd be something I would welcome with open arms. I'd be really excited to meet other LinkedIn creators. Matt: Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like YouTube, Instagram, they do a really good job with a lot of these like in-person creator events. But come to think of it, I haven't really heard of too many LinkedIn specific creator events. Because it's a newer and a lot of LinkedIn creators have like corporate jobs. So they can't be like, all right, like Wednesday, let me just fly out and just like hang out with my guys and girls and people, you know? But I think it'd be a benefit. I think there's a really strong LinkedIn online community. Daniel: As more and more creators are signing up for Carrot, do you see one social media platform outperforming a lot of the others? Like, do you see a lot more LinkedIn creators coming? Or? Matt: I mean, I would say this, right? Obviously, Twitch and YouTube creators have the steadiest monetization because it's built into the platforms. But Instagram and TikTok, often the monetization there can be part of a much bigger play. If you're doing really well on YouTube and Twitch, you probably don't have that much time to do 5,000 other things because you're always streaming. You're always making content. Whereas if you're on Instagram and TikTok, it's short form. So you have plenty of time for other things. Matt: So you might have your own companies, your own projects. So there's like a little bit of a monetization mix where It's almost like YouTube, Twitch, in the beginning, If you're not making much, you're not making much. and then you're making a lot and it's like, wow, that's really cool, but you don't have time for anything else until you've reached like a level of stardom at which then like you can do tons of other things. Whereas for Instagram and TikTok, even from the beginning, you can have lots of different side hustles attached to what you're doing where the content serves as like the upper funnel to whatever you're eventually upselling to in a way that's a little bit simpler than it is on YouTube and Twitch. Daniel: If you were to advise a creator starting now, would you tell them to post a lot on LinkedIn or how are you feeling about the platform? Matt: I would say figure out which platform and content type most matches with what you naturally want to do, right? There's some people, you know, who short form is very natural for them and they can just like record and talk and do it. They do that. There are other people like myself. I like podcasts. I don't like to just sit in front of the camera, just talk, do podcasts. So I always say, worry less about the trends and just figure out which style makes most sense for the type of content you do and just double down on that because it is possible to succeed no matter what style and platform you're on. Matt: Yeah, I feel like it's like one, what style makes the most, or what format or platform makes the most sense for the audience that you're trying to build or the customer base that you're trying to reach. And then second is probably like for you personally, what can you do the longest amount of time? Daniel: Totally. I like that. It's like, what's have business value and then like, what do you actually like? Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm not making like spectacle content. Like I gave 5,000 people a credit card. Like, I don't want to do that. It doesn't make sense. Daniel: Yeah. No, I really like that way of thinking about it. So what do you think about like video content on LinkedIn these days? Because LinkedIn's been kind of trying to push video too. Matt: I think it's a good push only because the newer generations are video first. Like that's what they understand. Obviously, LinkedIn also has an older demo on it, which is much more text focused and image focused. But like, eventually, I think it will trend more toward video. I think the biggest existential question is the same one like Instagram's facing, which is, to what degree does that cannibalize your existing social media formats, right? Like, obviously, Instagram has played back and forth. Like, there's Instagram IGTV, which is a totally separate app. Like, obviously, reels right now is a tab, but like, it could have been an app. It could have even been the main feed, right? I think there are experiments. Matt: Instagram, Adam Mosseri literally said they're experimenting with like, you open it, and it's actually shorts. Sometimes I open up YouTube, or it's real. Sometimes I open up YouTube, and it's just directly on shorts. So LinkedIn, they absolutely should be doing video as they're doing, and they just have to think through, how much do we prioritize that relative to everybody who's going to continue to just do image and photo? I actually don't really post a lot of video content on LinkedIn, because I'm also not sure how well it does. And I know I've already built a following of people who follow me for my text and image posts. And it works. And I'm a little worried about, gosh, if I post a video, like, and it flops, what does that do to my overall reach? I'm not as sure. We've both posted a lot of videos in Reddit. They've flopped. All of our high performers have been text plus image. And even a lot of other creators we've seen, too, with the exception of the corporate Natalie, whose skits are hilarious. I know Corporate Bro, Ross, who I also know, he's a great guy. Yeah, I don't know. It's Personally, I understand the rationale behind why they're trying to push the video, like you said, with reaching newer generations with the formats that they resonate with. But I couldn't tell you on my hand the number of people that I know who genuinely have seen consistently, like high performing video posts. Daniel: Usually when I see a high performing video post, it's about something that probably would have performed regardless of whether it was an image or not. Like a YC-backed big launch video. Matt: Yeah, like we're announcing something. I think people are experimenting. Chloe actually posts a lot on LinkedIn. She does her interview series and posts them on LinkedIn as videos. So I think people are sort of in the early days of figuring out what does best as a video. Daniel: Something that just came to mind, Eric, because earlier you were saying, like, everyone should be sort of posting content for people that maybe are working a corporate job. I think there's this hesitancy to create content. Because you might jeopardize your job. Matt: Right, and also like your boss is probably concerned. Yeah, I mean, don't be stupid about it, right? Don't post anything that would make you look bad. So I think if you're working a normal job, you have to post things knowing that your boss is looking at it. Daniel: But I don't think it's a excuse to not post. I think there's so many things that your boss would be fine with, right? Especially if you're taking like interesting takes about the industry, right? Why wouldn't your boss be supportive of that? It's like, oh, okay, this is like interesting. He's thinking about stuff. If anything, I might see them in a different light now that I know it's not just the work I'm giving them. They're smart. They have interesting perspectives on what's going on. Matt: So I always see it as like, yeah, it's something you have to keep in mind, but I don't think it's a deal breaker. Yeah. It's interesting because like when I was at BCG, I think some of these consulting firms maybe have a little bit of a... Can I just say, BCG produces so many people who end up making content. Like Kelly, his son, right, Taylor Bell, like all BCG. I don't know what it is. There's something in the water. Like I actually haven't seen that many people who are like, I'm at McKinsey and I post content or Bain. Daniel: I guess you're Bain. Well, fun fact about BCG too is the mayor of Boston, Michelle Wu worked at BCG too, so some politicians too. I mean, also John Legend came from BCG. Matt: That's true, right. So I don't know, maybe BCG just likes for people who end up viewing creative content things, but you were saying. Daniel: No, I was just saying like, I feel like the consulting firms are, a lot of the junior people, at least, are very hesitant about posting because, um. Matt: Yeah, because you're a cog in the machine. When you're an analyst in consulting, you're just a force multiplier. Everyone's like, how does this 22-year-old know anything that could benefit my business? Well, that's not really how it works, right? It's the senior partner who's coming with a hypothesis on what's happening with the business and has a day one answer. Daniel: And it's the job of the analyst to like verify that, right? They're just force multipliers, extensions of let's verify this hypothesis from the senior leader. And so yeah, that means consulting companies do see you as a cog. And so I can see if you're just posting stuff on the internet. It's like, they're not a cog anymore. They're like an individual, right? And to that, I would say either it turns out really well and accelerates your development to partner because eventually partners are the people who actually do build a brand, right? Or it accelerates you realizing you don't want to be in consulting anymore. You leave and you do something else, which is what I did and Taylor and Kelly and so many other people. Matt: And you. Daniel: And me. Hey, this man still has a job, all right? We'll cut that part out. Matt: Yeah, no, it's so interesting. Because like, at the senior level of consulting, it's massive to have a brand. Daniel: Yeah, totally. But you're just an analyst. You should be interchangeable. They don't want any client. They don't want to even risk a client being like, who the fuck is this guy? And he was on a deal. Yeah. Can't have the analysts, you know, making. Matt: Yeah, God forbid they have a personality. It's like, no, they sit in the team room and they just figure out my hypotheses. Hey, check, are they real or not? And then they turn into slides and decks and models. Matt: If, if you were to say like the one thing that you gained the most from McKinsey that has benefited you even to this day, like what would that be? Daniel: Uh, day one answer, right? Don't boil the ocean. It's like, no matter what the problem is, you theoretically can break it down instead of mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive bucket areas, which like theoretically helps you figure out a problem. That's probably the most helpful thing. It's also in some ways, you have to remember not always helpful. Sometimes there are just like, by very definition, structuring it that way means you're gonna miss out on things you wouldn't have thought of, right? Sometimes you want to be a little more globally optimizing and before structuring into the narrow problem set of what you know or potential causes, take a little more time to be a little bit more creative. I think in consulting, you don't do that as much. That's why I like consultants versus like, I don't know, like YouTubers are a different demo. I think like creators are a little bit more on the creative side. So I think it's an invaluable skill set, but I think it needs to be the start, not the end of how your brain works. Matt: I think part of that is what makes a format so nice on LinkedIn or, or, or, you know, the podcast on YouTube or maybe even on LinkedIn too. Have you thought about having a consistent format on LinkedIn? Cause right now you're just posting whatever your takes and I think that can be why it's so hard to post. Daniel: Um, well, I do have a format, right? It's like, here's something happening in the news. Here are my thoughts. There, I don't have like a format as so much like they're like, here's like the XYZ things. But, uh, for me, like if LinkedIn were more important to my business, I would, right? Like I actually do use formats. Like, for example, my YouTube podcast titles, I very much follow formats. There's only like three or four types of podcast titles that I'll do, right? Like, you know, I did this by doing this or like me on this, right? Or like, here's what X thinks about X. I think, um, formats work when you just have to produce a lot of outputs if you have to structure it. But for me, like LinkedIn is a helpful, but not necessarily like I have to post every single day. So I don't necessarily need, I think to have those distinctive formats. I think if we're posting more than yes, I absolutely would just to be seen. Be like, here are my content pillars or whatever. This might be pretty meta, but when you're thinking about the podcast, I think when, when we think about someone like John who, we think about the road to a billion dollars. And a lot of other creators have started to use like, you know, Rajan has his building the number one luxury Airbnb in Virginia. Have you thought about having a goal like that for a podcast? Because not many podcasts really have a distinctive like that. I agree. I actually do think it is important to come up with that framing. Matt: For me, it's a little different where I've never had the carrot podcast focused on much as like, here's a creator, here's how you become a billion dollar creator. And I actually, that's something I'm figuring out, right? For example, when you look at the other really big creator economy podcasts that I admire, right? Colin Smir, I think you're very much like, here's a really cool creator and here's what it means for the creator economy. Right, John Yu Shai is, here's a really cool creator and here's the nuts and bolts on how they did it. I'm not really either of those. I mean, obviously I touch on. I think I'm more like, here's a really cool creator. Like, here's what it looked like for them to take this path, and here's what it looks like today. So you can learn and understand, is this a path that might inspire you in some way? It's a little bit different than both Colin Samir and John Yu Shai, and it's less catchy because I haven't quite figured it out. But I do think, I guess this is a format to your earlier point. Yeah, I do think if like there's a content pillar, you do need to have like a clear why they're watching, and I am in the process of developing mine. I think it's tough even for Colin and Samir and John, because there isn't a clear, you know what you're getting when you're turning on a Colin and Samir video, but you're not going on that same journey as you are with John on his Road to a billion dollars. Matt: And I think it's tougher with a podcast format too, because it's harder to be part of that journey. You know, you're not like in essentially doing something. Daniel: Yes and no. Like, at least there's some consistency in the podcast where like the host is always going to be the same. I do agree, as a podcaster, if you are guest focused, you have to figure out how do I add my own personality into this in a way where people don't get annoyed when they're tuning in for the guest, but builds that brand identity over time. Matt: If you are like a yapping style podcast, though, where you don't have guests, I actually think it's much easier. You absolutely could be like, yeah, like this is the podcast where we talk about getting a billion dollars or relationships or like, you know, healthy gut microbiome, whatever, right? Like if it's just you. Daniel: It's just to your point, whenever you have a guest, you do have to be a little more thoughtful on like, you can't just be like, this podcast is only about this. Matt: Yeah, and then it's like, do you just want the goal to be, oh, we want to have the number one business podcast, then it's like, is that overdone? I mean, my goal again, because I do my podcast as a service of my company, Carrot, I don't need or want to be the number one creator podcast. Matt: In fact, I hope that continues to be Colin Samir and Johnny Shi because I love those guys, right? For me, it's about what podcast builds the most brand value for my company and builds my personal value as a good interviewer, relationship builder, and creator. That is different. I don't need to be number one for that. Daniel: You want to be number one for the company. Matt: Yeah, for the company and for my personal brand. That does not mean I need to be the number one, you know, most subscribed podcaster out there. How do you balance, you know, posting for the company and also yourself? Because I'm sure it's hard balancing the different teams. Daniel: I mean, most of it's blended and it's the same. Generally, all the content I make involves creators in some ways, which ties into Carrot. The only thing I mainly do that doesn't touch Carrot is my yapping podcast with Chloe. That's like totally independent. But even there's so much overlap. They're like my Chew staff, right, learned about us through my podcast, right? Matt: You will meet so many creators and people in the industry who respect you because of your work, right? I've met so many people who they're creators and they're interested in Carrot because they heard me from JOMO. Daniel: So, like, JOMO is the podcast I do with Chloe, the yapping one, Joy of Missing Out. It's a great pod, totally. Like, it is separate, but everything still builds together eventually. Matt: Yeah, like the, man, so many thoughts. Matt: I feel like for you, Eric, you clearly, you know, you're building a company in the creator economy space, and so it makes a ton of sense for you to be obviously making content. Daniel: Yes, totally. I'm practicing what I preach. Matt: Exactly. Creators respect me more, but I'm also making content. I'm not just like a rando. Daniel: 100%. And I personally, also, I'm biased, of course, as a creator. I think every founder should be creating content in some shape or form. What would you say to people that are maybe founders but are kind of hesitant to start creating content? Matt: Literally, AI is making products more and more commoditized where the thing itself you're building, anybody could probably build relatively easily. How do you differentiate yourself? Distribution. What's the easiest way to get distribution today? Organic content. So don't even think of it as, wow, I'm going to do this for my personality. Think of it as, this is brand marketing for my company. What's the right format, whether it's, you know, short form, long form, which platform, whether you're the one doing it or somebody you've employed, what's the right format that's going to help me blow up and grow there? Daniel: I think it's because humans are such emotional creatures, and I don't think AI will ever be able to create, I mean, you know, it might be able to say the same things as you, but the emotion that you can convey in saying it, I'm not sure AI will be ever able to do it. It might one day, but we're quite a ways off. Matt: I hope not. Matt: And so for now, let's continue to lean into the advantage we have as humans, which is the emotional connection and producing stuff that people feel like actually comes from you. Daniel: Yeah, on the topic of AI-generated content, obviously, like, especially with written, nowadays you can have video-generated AI content as well, but like on written platforms, I feel like people are especially sensitive to content that comes across as AI slop. Matt: Oh, yeah, slop. So much on LinkedIn. I can tell, and it's, at least I think I can tell. I probably won't be able to in a couple of years, but for now. Do you use AI at all with writing? Daniel: I do. So as I alluded to before, I will come up with the ideas myself, I will write the first draft myself, but then I'll often have LinkedIn be like, hey, you understand my voice. Um, I'll have ChatGPT be like, look over my voice and just like find and improve it. And I usually won't copy it word for word. I'll be like, oh, like this is a different framing that I like and like implement suggestions. I use it as a tool. Matt: Yeah, personally, I, I also use it in the workflow, but usually, like, the idea starts from my head or a conversation I had with someone, and then, you know, I'll probably take a first pass at the draft and run it through. Daniel: Yeah, pretty similar to what I do. I mean, it is a great tool. I think you'd be dumb not to use that at all, right? But I think it's important not to just be like, just generate random fucking sloth. Matt: Totally agree. Yeah. Daniel: I'm ready to do a good idea about it. Yeah. Matt: All right, let's do the thing. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, let's do the thing. Matt: Okay. Oh, I love this. Aw, little something. They got me a gift. It is wrapped in what appears to be construction paper with a hand-written note that just says main, which I love because I hope there's a side course too, but- Daniel: There, there's no side course. Matt: Oh, this is great. Wow. Okay, so first of all, they made me my own plaque, which is super fucking cool. It says presented to Eric Wei for passing 25,000 followers, which I know is not that much, but I'm trying, becoming a top voice and extending over 1.5 billion and credit lines of up careers to take control of their finances with a really lovely note about what they want to see by care from Daniel and Matt. This is incredibly sweet. I absolutely am gonna put this in a place where everybody who comes in it can see because I think it's cool as fuck. Also, how do you sound like Daniel and Matt versus Matt and Daniel? Daniel: Um, I thought, are you supposed to do it alphabetically? And then, so that's why I did it that way. Matt: Daniel's the one who made it. Daniel: Daniel's like, so, Matt, you know, courtesy dictates alphabetical. I guess we have to put my name first. Well, I shouldn't make all of it. Some friends at MIT, Nithya was a huge help in- Matt: Nithya just really wanted to put my name first, Matt. Daniel: Yeah, Nithya was a fan of me. This is really lovely. Thank you so much, guys. I appreciate this deeply. Matt: Hopefully that, that's better than a Forbes 30. I wish I could just paste it. Just stick it there. Stick it right here. I just want everybody to know. Uh, this is so lovely. Thank you so much. That's a problem. Also, what? Is that a wrap? Okay. I was like, they gave me the gift. Oh, there is a second. That was the main. Here's the secondary course. Yep. Wait, oh, it's on permanent paper. We love that. A little bit better than construction paper. This is like literally heavy duty construction paper. Daniel: Okay, so Eric, this is called Good Idea, Bad Idea. And I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight ideas for you about Carrot. Most of them are probably going to be bad, but I'm curious to hear your ideas. And they're going to start, well, we'll see how they go. The first one is a creator credit card. And I know you already do business credit cards, but this is a credit card that a fan can get that supports the creator, and they get perks of that creator. Matt: Yeah, so a lot of creators have tried this before. Kim Kardashian did one, if you actually look it up. And now it is public, so I can mention it as well. Just Google Beast Financial. There's been stuff leaking around that now, so I can like mention it because it's out in the public. Uh, yeah, I think there's something potentially there, right? Like brands have launched their own rewards cards since the beginning of time. What is a creator but another brand? If someone implements this properly, I think it could do well. Daniel: Um, the next one is a creator slash Carrot SAT. It would be a little viral marketing stunt for you where you'd ask creators terms like YouTube Studio, CAC, CPM, and then it's actually a pretty good idea. Yeah, honestly, maybe we'll do that as a format. It's not a bad one. It's like something fun. Matt: Uh, man in the street content is also very fun. I host a lot of events. You can just go around and be like, hey, what do you think? And so that could be fun. Like, can you pass the creator SAT quiz, right? That would be a fun streaming interview. Daniel: Yeah, totally. It's like, do you know what Vine is? Oh. Matt: Yeah. Um, we were talking about a little bit of this earlier, but this would be um Carrot VC. And I think what would differentiate this, and I'm curious to see if this would actually work, but I know part of what Magic Spoon did is give a lot of influencers equity. And somehow you'd need to get these influencers to post a lot of gift equity for posts. Do you think that would work? Daniel: So there's actually three different ways to structure stuff with creators. The first is you just give them equity as you framed. We don't do that. I think if you give people equity, they don't value it, they don't do anything. The second is you reward it for work, like they post or something. I think this is a very viable format. I think people do. Matt: The third is what we've done, which is creators actually invest in us because that's the deepest form of commitment where a creator, because they're a part owner, are much more likely to want to do something to help grow you because they help own it. I'm actually most bullish in that format. It's really funny you say that because it's in a way like, like how you started Carrot. Like you can't just give out free money or else no one's going to value it. Daniel: Yeah, no one cares. It's like, hey, I'm going to give you equity. Cool, I guess. The fuck does that do? Can I like buy Chipotle bowl with this? No. Cool. Great. Thanks, guys. Matt: The next one is creator insurance. And this is betting against burnout or cancellation. Very hard to implement. Insurance thrives on, obviously, like law of large numbers and like actual science to figure out exactly how much something will cost and then how to price the premiums. I just don't think there's enough data on that yet. Good to know. Daniel: This next one I'm really excited about is a Carrot rating. So a lot of creators are getting worried about scams from companies. Are they going to pay, you know, net 30, whatever the payment is? And then companies might get worried about, you know, is this creator actually going to post this for me? So the thought behind this is that you're a middleman, almost like a credit score to both the creators and the businesses for brand deals. It's a real problem. Matt: I've seen it both ways where creators renege on their agreements to brands and brands just don't pay creators. I think there potentially is room for somebody to figure this out. I'm not sure necessarily it's Carrot. I think the right person is somebody who's brokering the brand deals. I think there are some great companies out there that are building these brand deal marketplaces, but I agree the idea is good. Okay. The next one is this might not be a good idea for Carrot, but another creator company, a Carrot shelf and target with like Joyride, Feastables, Prime, all the creator stuff. I think it's a great idea. Probably not us because we're focused on the financial side more than the merchandising, but you absolutely could fill like a little shop with all the different products that come from creators. Maybe that that could be something for Congo brands because I know you started a Valerian. Daniel: Yeah. Congo Congo did Prime and Elena Nui, if I said her name right. Matt: Alani Nui. Daniel: Alani Nui. Clearly I'm very knowledgeable about this stuff for those of you who don't know. I'm extremely knowledgeable because it's a Louisville, Kentucky company. Matt: Oh, there you go. I know you're from there. Daniel: And what they eluded to is that my co-founder and I started a like sleeping supplements project. It's legit. Yeah. We haven't really did anything. I think we sold like one bottle, but you know, it's a good way to like test what it's like to work with each other's co-founders. That'll play. Matt: And the last one is Hinge for creators. I know you've been very open about your relationships and uh. I don't know if that would work, but it's funny. I just did a podcast with a creator who said she would want to have an app to match people with an audience creator industry because you want someone more stable. So maybe the opposite of the idea. I guess maybe the hinge for creators is Instagram DMs. Daniel: Yeah, that too. A lot of them use Instagram. Interesting. Matt: Awesome. Last question for you then, I guess, Eric, is anything else you want to tell the audience that we haven't talked about today? Daniel: I think that if you're on the precipice of figuring out, hey, I have a job, I don't want to post stuff, just post stuff. Like, yes, make sure you wouldn't say anything that you wouldn't say in earshot of your boss. But other than that, just go for it. And so you get started, especially in this day and age. It's even more important. Otherwise, it doesn't matter where you worked. People still might not really care. Matt: You heard it here. Thank you for your time, Eric.